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  • Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Dec 31, 2013
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    Hey all, just wondering what I’m missing about selling a firearm to another private party.
    I see many sellers’ ads with the clause, must have/show Louisiana DL And I’m wondering if that’s code for I don’t sell to anyone from another state.
    Considering how close many of us live to the MS state line, (or Texas even) it’s conceivable that there may be a buyer who resides in that state and might like to purchase a firearm I list. Being a Louisiana resident myself, why would I not consider selling him a firearm if he’s known to me and I’m certain he’s not a felon?
     
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    Strick8

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    Magdump, I am of the understanding that selling to a person who resides in another state requires the firearm is transferred at an FFL in the purchaser’s state. In your example you would have to either meet the buyer at an FFL in MS or ship to an FFL in MS for the firearm to be transferred. I may be off on that, but that’s how I’ve operated.

    ATF link:

    https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-a...eceive-firearm-their-state-they-purchased-out


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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    DAVE_M

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    I usually post that I require a DL or CHP, because it scares away the felons and weirdos. If I meet with the person and they are personable, then I may or may not ask them to show me ID. I've only ever had one other BS member ask me for an ID and had me sign a bill of sale, but that's because he was an attorney and took those sales a bit more serious than others.

    IIRC, a felon was arrested here recently after posting many WTB ads and stating they would buy a bunch of firearms.
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    Hey all, just wondering what I’m missing about selling a firearm to another private party.
    I see many sellers’ ads with the clause, must have/show Louisiana DL And I’m wondering if that’s code for I don’t sell to anyone from another state.
    Considering how close many of us live to the MS state line, (or Texas even) it’s conceivable that there may be a buyer who resides in that state and might like to purchase a firearm I list. Being a Louisiana resident myself, why would I not consider selling him a firearm if he’s known to me and I’m certain he’s not a felon?

    Are you advocating breaking federal gun laws as long as the seller is someone known to you?
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    I usually post that I require a DL or CHP, because it scares away the felons and weirdos. If I meet with the person and they are personable, then I may or may not ask them to show me ID. I've only ever had one other BS member ask me for an ID and had me sign a bill of sale, but that's because he was an attorney and took those sales a bit more serious than others.

    IIRC, a felon was arrested here recently after posting many WTB ads and stating they would buy a bunch of firearms.

    Yes, there was.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Magdump, I am of the understanding that selling to a person who resides in another state requires the firearm is transferred at an FFL in the purchaser’s state. In your example you would have to either meet the buyer at an FFL in MS or ship to an FFL in MS for the firearm to be transferred. I may be off on that, but that’s how I’ve operated.

    ATF link:

    https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-a...eceive-firearm-their-state-they-purchased-out


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Here’s the scenario I’m referring to: A person who is out shooting rabbits with his buddy from a neighboring state and said buddy wants to buy that person’s shotgun. Or, a private seller and a private buyer from different states wish to meet ftf and conduct a sale/purchase of a firearm that they both may legally own in their respective states. I know it’s advised to go through a FFL but What does the law say?
    I realize in my first post I didn’t mention a FFL, and I know that interstate sales can be legally achieved via a FFL, but I’m talking about legal private to private sale of a firearm when it’s legal in both parties respective states.
     
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    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    Here’s the scenario I’m referring to: A person who is out shooting rabbits with his buddy from a neighboring state and said buddy wants to buy that person’s shotgun. Or, a private seller and a private buyer from different states wish to meet ftf and conduct a sale/purchase of a firearm that they both may legally own in their respective states. I know it’s advised to go through a FFL but What does the law say?

    I don't think it's a suggestion. It looks like the law says go through a FFL.

    An unlicensed person who is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source, provided the transfer takes place through a federal firearms licensee in their state of residence.
    [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3); 27 CFR 478.29]
     

    Kraut

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    I don't think it's a suggestion. It looks like the law says go through a FFL.

    An unlicensed person who is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source, provided the transfer takes place through a federal firearms licensee in their state of residence.
    [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3); 27 CFR 478.29]

    I thought that used to be the case across the board for handguns, but aren't long gun purchases in bordering states acceptable without adding another dealer in? Example, I cross the state line to a gun show in Gulfport and buy a shotgun from a dealer there, he's a licensed FFL and I reside in LA, I was pretty sure that was acceptable. Or, for that matter, I take a ride to Dad's Super Pawn, which I hear has good prices and selection, and pick out a new rifle. I've never actually made a purchase that way, but it was my understanding that was allowable. Was that the case at one point but it has subsequently been changed? Any FFL answers for 100% certainty?
     
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    DAVE_M

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    Food for thought, one of the resident grumpy old men once said something about selling to an out of state person is only for handguns.
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    Here’s the scenario I’m referring to: A person who is out shooting rabbits with his buddy from a neighboring state and said buddy wants to buy that person’s shotgun. Or, a private seller and a private buyer from different states wish to meet ftf and conduct a sale/purchase of a firearm that they both may legally own in their respective states. I know it’s advised to go through a FFL but What does the law say?
    I realize in my first post I didn’t mention a FFL, and I know that interstate sales can be legally achieved via a FFL, but I’m talking about legal private to private sale of a firearm when it’s legal in both parties respective states.

    It looks like the law says go through a FFL. Did you even read it?

    An unlicensed person who is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source, provided the transfer takes place through a federal firearms licensee in their state of residence.
    [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3); 27 CFR 478.29]

    Are you suggesting that I’m advocating breaking federal gun laws by posing a question?

    You asked your question and you got several replies. One posted the link to the federal law answering your question. Another quoted the law. You turned around and asked essentially the same question again but mention a specific scenario, albeit one still covered under the law. A reasonable person could easily argue that you are saying there is a specific set of conditions that would make it alright to break the federal law.
     

    honestlou

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    Federal law previously (years ago) made a distinction between adjoining states and states that did not adjoin, but that was years ago, and only applied to FFLs if I remember correctly. Regardless, current federal law is that an FFL may sell or transfer a long gun (rifle or shotgun) to a resident of any state. A FFL can only sell or transfer a handgun to a resident of the same state. But, an individual, non-FFL holder, may only sell a firearm (any firearm) to a resident of the same state.

    I know it sounds ridiculous, but that is the law. It is probably one of the most violated federal gun laws due to the fact that so many people are ignorant about it. Just like the OP, many people think if they are face to face, ie. at a hunting camp, or visiting a relative, they can sell or give a firearm. But it is illegal. Even to give. Can't sell, or transfer.

    And while the chance of getting caught may be slim, it is not a chance you should take. Certainly your buddy or your cousin wouldn't turn you in. But if you get a gun from your friend, and it gets stolen from you, are you going to report it stolen? If it's used in a crime, the cops will trace it's history, and then the truth comes out.

    As an example of the ignorance, several years ago I sold an AR to a good friend who is a resident of Florida, but comes to Louisiana frequently. We went to Bowie Outfitters in Baton Rouge and paid them to do a transfer. The young guy behind the counter at the time said "I don't know why y'all are doing this". He went on to tell me that he frequently sold guns and shipped them to buyers in other states, as an individual-not as an FFL. He thought only FFLs had to do background checks and that individuals could sell to whoever. Ridiculous stupidity from someone who worked at a gun store.
     
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    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    From a 2016 ATF Pamphlet:

    Non-Licensed Residents From Another State
    -May dispose of personal firearms to any FFL.
    -May acquire long guns (rifle or shotgun) only from FFLs licensed within the State, provided the laws of both States are complied with, and all age, background checks and recordkeeping requirements have been met.
    -May order firearms from any FFL and have them shipped to an FFL in their State of residence in accordance with State and Federal law. Note: Carriers may have additional requirements.
    -Cannot acquire handguns (pistol or revolver). Cannot acquire frames, receivers, or firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell.
    -Cannot acquire from or dispose of firearms to non-licensed individuals.

    I couldn't find an ATF "shooting rabbits with your buddy from a neighboring state" pamphlet but I would suspect that if the buddy were not an FFL, the ATF would frown on it.

    ay3jh4utho8ykv9xr3u.jpg


    o6qsd6xdur5j69la5f2j.jpg
     

    DAVE_M

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    From a 2016 ATF Pamphlet:

    Non-Licensed Residents From Another State
    -May dispose of personal firearms to any FFL.
    -May acquire long guns (rifle or shotgun) only from FFLs licensed within the State, provided the laws of both States are complied with, and all age, background checks and recordkeeping requirements have been met.
    -May order firearms from any FFL and have them shipped to an FFL in their State of residence in accordance with State and Federal law. Note: Carriers may have additional requirements.
    -Cannot acquire handguns (pistol or revolver). Cannot acquire frames, receivers, or firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell.
    -Cannot acquire from or dispose of firearms to non-licensed individuals.

    I couldn't find an ATF "shooting rabbits with your buddy from a neighboring state" pamphlet but I would suspect that if the buddy were not an FFL, the ATF would frown on it.

    ay3jh4utho8ykv9xr3u.jpg


    o6qsd6xdur5j69la5f2j.jpg

    Seems pretty straight forward to me.
     

    Magpie

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    What if (theoretically) You have a shotgun, given to you by your grandpa (who got it from his dad) who lived the early part of his life in Mississippi, moved to Louisiana later in life and brought it with him ( In 1965) and you wanted to give it to your son who lives in Louisiana. Do they (ATF) care about the history of the shotgun? Do I need to do paperwork (transfer, bill of sale) for a gun that was never connected to you except by your possession of it? Or if you wanted to give/sell it to your very good friend or even a guy at the hunting camp who is friends with the land owner who allows you to hunt rabbits there? In short what I'm saying is, is the shotgun basically a "ghost gun" that cannot be traced or linked to any state or owner?
     

    Bangswitch

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    What if (theoretically) You have a shotgun, given to you by your grandpa (who got it from his dad) who lived the early part of his life in Mississippi, moved to Louisiana later in life and brought it with him ( In 1965) and you wanted to give it to your son who lives in Louisiana. Do they (ATF) care about the history of the shotgun? Do I need to do paperwork (transfer, bill of sale) for a gun that was never connected to you except by your possession of it? Or if you wanted to give/sell it to your very good friend or even a guy at the hunting camp who is friends with the land owner who allows you to hunt rabbits there? In short what I'm saying is, is the shotgun basically a "ghost gun" that cannot be traced or linked to any state or owner?

    Gifts I don’t believe are regulated by the atf, as long as you are not gifting to a prohibited person.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    It looks like the law says go through a FFL. Did you even read it?

    An unlicensed person who is not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source, provided the transfer takes place through a federal firearms licensee in their state of residence.
    [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3); 27 CFR 478.29]



    You asked your question and you got several replies. One posted the link to the federal law answering your question. Another quoted the law. You turned around and asked essentially the same question again but mention a specific scenario, albeit one still covered under the law. A reasonable person could easily argue that you are saying there is a specific set of conditions that would make it alright to break the federal law.
    Out of state source...Like an online sporting goods store? You’ve attempted to shove the square peg into the round hole. That law does not apply to private face to face sales. That law applies to someone ordering a gun from a ‘source’ and likely having it shipped.
    Let me rephrase once more before I tell you that you’re wrong.

    If I go to a buddy’s house who lives in a state that allows face to face private sale of a firearm, he and I both are legally able to possess a firearm, I can buy his gun and bring it home without getting a FFL involved and I haven’t broken any law. I’ve known this for years, but I collect firearms. I did run this by my FFL again today. So here’s the scoop, like it or not, accept it or not, and good luck finding the law (federal or state) that says I can’t legally purchase from or sell face to face to a private citizen from a different state without a transfer. What’s more is, if my buddy selling his old shotgun actually lives in Florida and can’t make the drive, we can meet in Mississippi and conduct the sale just as legally.
    I have seen things like this happen over the years, rumors lead to unwritten laws that people will blindly follow and swear on their life that it’s so, but I’m here to tell you you’re wrong. It’s allowed. It’s legal to sell your gun to someone from out of state, face to face in your state or their state or whatever state private gun sales are legal.
    I’m not talking about shipping a gun, ordering a gun, or buying from any other source other than a plain old average Joe gun owner that happens to live in another state. I give him cash, he hands me the gun. I don’t need a FFL. I don’t need a bill of sale. And before you jump in and tell me that it’s a good practice to do all that to cover my ass, that’s not the answer to the question I posed. It’s not illegal. Almost forgot, you’re wrong.

    Feel free to show me a law that plainly states differently.
    Call forth a FFL and pose the question.
    Stop misleading folks.

    I’m surprised that so many folks here believe it’s not legal. Any chance we could get a FFL to weigh in on this? I know where I stand but don’t have the clout that the nay sayers have so nobody is gonna take my word for it.
     
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    thperez1972

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    Out of state source...Like an online sporting goods store?
    Let me rephrase once more before I tell you that you’re wrong.

    If I go to a buddy’s house who lives in a state that allows face to face private sale of a firearm, he and I both are legally able to possess a firearm, I can buy his gun and bring it home without getting a FFL involved and I haven’t broken any law. I’ve known this for years, but I collect firearms. I did run this by my FFL again today. So here’s the scoop, like it or not, accept it or not, and good luck finding the law (federal or state) that says I can’t legally purchase from or sell face to face to a private citizen from a different state without a transfer. What’s more is, if my buddy selling his old shotgun actually lives in Florida and can’t make the drive, we can meet in Mississippi and conduct the sale just as legally.
    I have seen things like this happen over the years, rumors lead to unwritten laws that people will blindly follow and swear on their life that it’s so, but I’m here to tell you you’re wrong. It’s allowed. It’s legal to sell your gun to someone from out of state, face to face in your state or their state or whatever state private gun sales are legal.
    I’m not talking about shipping a gun, ordering a gun, or buying from any other source other than a plain old average Joe gun owner that happens to live in another state. I give him cash, he hands me the gun.

    Feel free to show me a law that plainly states differently.
    Call forth a FFL and pose the question.
    Stop misleading folks



    I'm not misleading anyone. I'm quoting the law and the ATF. If you want to interpret "non-licensed residents from another state cannot acquire from or dispose of firearms to non-licensed individuals" as non-licensed residents from another state are free to acquire from or dispose of firearms to non-licensed individuals, you go right ahead. You asked someone to give you the law that said you could not and the law was given to you. And you were show the guidelines from the ATF backing up what the law says. The quoted law wasn't some rumor for people to blindly follow. It was from the U.S. Code posted on the ATF site and copied in this thread and clarified by the ATF's pamphlet. I don't need to call a FFL. When it comes to the laws that will be enforced by the ATF, I believe I'll listen to the ATF.

    "other than a plain old average Joe gun owner that happens to live in another state. I give him cash, he hands me the gun."

    a plain old average Joe = non-licensed individual
    give him cash, he hands me the gun = acquire from
    I = non-licensed residents from another state

    The ATF described the exact scenario you are saying is legal.

    I cannot give a plain old average Joe cash and have him hand me the gun according to the ATF.

    Now you come back in here, again, and say it's legal and anyone who says otherwise can show you the law. You've been shown the law and you can (should be able to) read the clarification from the ATF. Now before you start asking for the law again, why not explain how the provided law does not address your scenario.
     

    DAVE_M

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    18 U.S.C 922(a)(3); 27 CFR 478.29

    (a)  It shall be unlawful--

    (3)  for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
     

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