"budget AR thread" has me thinking

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  • DAVE_M

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    That is my point exactly , they don't make drop in or ready to shoot barrels for AR 15s . The sites you provided actually shows that they only furnish blanks and don't offer any advice on how to seal gas tubes or blocks. AR Performance has his own chamber which is to the 6.8spc and 6.8spc2 what the . 223 w is to the . 223 and 5.56 . I advised op get a 6.8 if gun was going to be a hunting gun and anyone who knows anything about 6.8s would not considered Hs barrels " no name " they are the ones others copy . His 3r and 5r performance barrels often out perform barrels people pay twice as much for . And his are ready to shoot , you don't just get a blank someone has to machine .

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    Congrats?

    I suppose you believe White Oak and Compass Lake don’t know what they are doing as well...
     

    shrxfn

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    I do know the quality of AR Performances barrels but to clairfy he does not make his own barrel blanks. He did design his own chamber for the 6.8SPC round that resolved some high pressure issues that were found with the original chamber design by Remington. If I remember correctly he also designed the button that is used by barrel blank manufacturers to button rifle the barrels he buys. I don't remember off hand who he uses for blanks but from what I recall it was a top tier blank supplier maybe Pac-Nor or Bartlein maybe even Shilen. His barrels that he sells are very good and he does suggest using Loctite under the gas block to help seal it if you are getting gas leakage. Don't remember which one he suggested off hand so I won't step into that puddle.
     

    DAVE_M

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    I do know the quality of AR Performances barrels but to clairfy he does not make his own barrel blanks. He did design his own chamber for the 6.8SPC round that resolved some high pressure issues that were found with the original chamber design by Remington. If I remember correctly he also designed the button that is used by barrel blank manufacturers to button rifle the barrels he buys. I don't remember off hand who he uses for blanks but from what I recall it was a top tier blank supplier maybe Pac-Nor or Bartlein maybe even Shilen. His barrels that he sells are very good and he does suggest using Loctite under the gas block to help seal it if you are getting gas leakage. Don't remember which one he suggested off hand so I won't step into that puddle.

    Possibly 620, which is a sleeving compound, not a threadlocker.

    Honestly, I try not to get caught up swooning over brand names. There are proven ways to do things and shoddy patchwork that some people believe is the best. Blue loctite isn’t designed for the application and I question anyone who recommends it.
     

    ozarkpugs

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    Congrats?

    I suppose you believe White Oak and Compass Lake don’t know what they are doing as well...
    Fact is I gave my opinion on building ARs and you called my opinion and the facts I stated "misinformation" without producing any evidence I had misinformed and then discounted one of the best barrel providers in the AR buisness because his barrels are under priced and you have not heard of them . You imply H at AR performance is wrong because he recommends blue loctie as a sealer then used several other companies as authorities without sharing their recommendations even worse you used a company that does not build AR barrels as a reference and defended your use of them by sharing their page that states they do not build AR barrels . That is misinformation at its zenith . I only own 1 white oak , a stainless . 223 w and it shoots great despite the gas block/ tube being sealed with blue loctie . There 6.8 barrels don't have the performance chamber , are not offered Melonite and are not offered in 3 groove or with R rifling so I would not considered them an option for the 6.8 .
    No offense but I stand behind my earlier claim that you are just arguing to be arguing .



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    John_

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    Its right on their website, he recommends blue loctite as a sealant within the gas block to barrel. He also claims he's been using blue loctite as a bedding material if the barrel is a loose fit to upper receiver. Been doing it for 27 years he claims.

    Under "build an upper? quick tips" paragraph: https://www.ar15performance.com/faqs

    I bet he puts blue loctite on his warts too.
     
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    Magdump

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    Dirty Sanchez (member here) was a rep for LOCTITE for many years (thanks for all the freebies Chip!) and I’m sure he can vouch for the temp ranges of those fantastic German products. Both blue and red are good up to 300 degrees Fahrenheit. The high temp red is good to like 450 I think. As to sealing a gas leak on a AR gas block, I’m not a physicist, but I took physics in high school and college. My best educated guess is the temp would not be the problem. It would be the pressure. I just don’t believe that product would seal a leaky gas pathway on an AR or the exhaust headers on a small block Chevy. Would the blue keep a gas block set screw from backing out? Quite possibly. But I prefer the high temp red, 272 I think is the number. There are 3 different red formulas.
     

    Magdump

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    Here we go:

    154a04771351d9af76d89b04b4e3f1e8.jpg

    So, it’s really all about the locking strength more than the temp rating.
    As to leak sealing capabilities, it’s not designed for that and I doubt any of those products would hold up to the hot pressurized gasses flowing through a gas port-block-tube-key pathway. I’m not saying a barrel designer did not recommend the practice, but I think that practice would be useless.
    Gas systems on these rifles operate fine as is with a minor amount of leakage, as evidenced by the carbon buildup on the gas tube where it exits the block. Being that the blast will take the path of least resistance, the vast majority of the gas makes it to where it needs to go. If it were so imperative that the system be completely sealed, all barrels would come with the barrel nut and gas system in place on the barrel. Noveske does this, but it’s not necessary.

    Lastly, as far as for bedding a barrel to an upper receiver? Say what? If you have a barrel, a nut and a receiver, you use anti seize on the threads of the receiver (I like the Aero grease) and torque the barrel nut to spec. Done deal. Ain’t no bedding going on there. Free float handguard or not. I have no idea where he was going with that one, but the guy obviously likes blue loctite.

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    DAVE_M

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    Fact is I gave my opinion on building ARs and you called my opinion and the facts I stated "misinformation" without producing any evidence I had misinformed and then discounted one of the best barrel providers in the AR buisness because his barrels are under priced and you have not heard of them . You imply H at AR performance is wrong because he recommends blue loctie as a sealer then used several other companies as authorities without sharing their recommendations even worse you used a company that does not build AR barrels as a reference and defended your use of them by sharing their page that states they do not build AR barrels . That is misinformation at its zenith . I only own 1 white oak , a stainless . 223 w and it shoots great despite the gas block/ tube being sealed with blue loctie . There 6.8 barrels don't have the performance chamber , are not offered Melonite and are not offered in 3 groove or with R rifling so I would not considered them an option for the 6.8 .
    No offense but I stand behind my earlier claim that you are just arguing to be arguing .



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    You’re emotionally invested into a brand and believe whatever the guy selling you a product tells you. That’s how misinformation is spread.

    Bartlein does make barrels and on their website they specifically state they do not finish them. They recommend Compass Lake. Had you actually read their website, which was the first link provided, you would have read that.
     

    DAVE_M

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    Here we go:

    154a04771351d9af76d89b04b4e3f1e8.jpg

    So, it’s really all about the locking strength more than the temp rating.
    As to leak sealing capabilities, it’s not designed for that and I doubt any of those products would hold up to the hot pressurized gasses flowing through a gas port-block-tube-key pathway. I’m not saying a barrel designer did not recommend the practice, but I think that practice would be useless.
    Gas systems on these rifles operate fine as is with a minor amount of leakage, as evidenced by the carbon buildup on the gas tube where it exits the block. Being that the blast will take the path of least resistance, the vast majority of the gas makes it to where it needs to go. If it were so imperative that the system be completely sealed, all barrels would come with the barrel nut and gas system in place on the barrel. Noveske does this, but it’s not necessary.

    Lastly, as far as for bedding a barrel to an upper receiver? Say what? If you have a barrel, a nut and a receiver, you use anti seize on the threads of the receiver (I like the Aero grease) and torque the barrel nut to spec. Done deal. Ain’t no bedding going on there. Free float handguard or not. I have no idea where he was going with that one, but the guy obviously likes blue loctite.

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    I don’t believe any Loctite threadlocker can withstand the pressures near an AR gas block. It’s enough to erode steel.

    Yes, Loctite 620 sleeving compound has been used to bed barrels into the upper receiver. It’s a common practice on precision builds. This guy saying he’s using blue loctite to bed a barrel is just ignorant. He doesn’t know what he’s doing and that is entirely the incorrect use for blue loctite.
     
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    John_

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    On this subject I just read an article on gas tube pressures. It depends on several factors like the gas port location (pistol, carbine, mid length, or rifle) and the specific cartridge and propellant used but gas tube pressures can be as high as 12,000 psi very briefly. Clearly it's a brief spike (experts refer to the dwell of the gas impulse) but the pressures of say a 5.56 pistol length are super high. And they recommend you use the longest possible tube length (or barrel port location) possible. For instance the mid length instead of carbine on a 16" 5.56 or .223 Wilde chambered barrel. And why mid length came into existence really, slightly better reliability vs carbine @ a given overall 556/.223 rem barrel length.

    I just never gave it much thought before, that the gas tube working pressures could be so high, tho the dwell is very very brief. But it all makes sense when you consider 5.56x45mm max cartridge internal pressure is 62,000 psi. Much higher than say straight wall cartridges in the AR platform say like .450 Bushmaster. Its max cartridge psi is 38,500. Or the latest straight wall case wildcat, .350 Legend. Bottleneck cartridges working (or peak) pressures are much much greater than straight wall cartridges, what provides the basis of a high velocity round/projectile. 30.06, .270 Winchester, .308 Win, .243 Win, or the venerable 5.56x45mm.

    For anyone who doesn't know better, the AR15 gas impulse/energy rotates and unlocks the bolt from battery in the barrel extension, and cartridge rearward momentum (recoil) does the rest. Drives the BCG rearward compressing the buffer spring, then returns and strips a fresh round and locks the bolt into battery/ready to fire condition.

    And the further that barrel gas port is located down the barrel for a given cartridge, working pressures are lower. And well known barrel manufacturers state the longer gas system length results in better consistency and overall accuracy of a barrel. Especially when you are talking about precision long range shooters. You would not desire a carbine length gas system on a 20" 5.56 or .223 Wilde barrel. And why no one makes such a barrel to my knowledge.

    So I would seriously question the usage of blue Loctite as a sealant on the gas block to barrel mating surfaces. But I have read on line about peeps experiencing initial functional unreliability of a new AR rifle, short stroking or failure to go into battery, and other peeps tell em to run some dirty ammo like Wolf or other Russian manufactured ammo to "seal" or dirty up minor gas leakages @ the gas block. Never experienced this nor tried this method, but it's out there on other forums. The advocates claim it works sometimes.

    Here is an image comparing diff AR-15 gas system lengths (really helpful I find):
    0pqnakx0pebodnfsql6.jpg
     
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    Magdump

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    Thanks for that pic John. That’s the scale I have to recite to people when they ask me what length rail will cover their gas system. Now I can just text that pic.
     

    John_

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    Thanks for that pic John. That’s the scale I have to recite to people when they ask me what length rail will cover their gas system. Now I can just text that pic.

    You are welcome, Mag. I saved that pic to my desktop pc, its valuable to visually see the differences. Least to me.
     
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    ozarkpugs

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    I have installed gas blocks with and without blue loctie and all functioned fine . The amount of leakage without is very small and does carbon over . As far as using to snug up the barrel into the upper goes my experience has always been the barrel needed to be tapped or at least forced into the upper so I've never tried it . I have heard people use shimstock to take up the slack . Loctie is cheap and easy to clean off and everyone I know who has used it says it works and those that have not say it doesn't . Go figure .

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    ozarkpugs

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    You’re emotionally invested into a brand and believe whatever the guy selling you a product tells you. That’s how misinformation is spread.

    Bartlein does make barrels and on their website they specifically state they do not finish them. They recommend Compass Lake. Had you actually read their website, which was the first link provided, you would have read that.
    You sir are the one who threw out brand names . Names of people who don't even build AR barrels -just blanks- . Everything I have stated is based on actual experience and everything you have countered with has been what you believe and not what you have experienced. You say a good mechanic will scratch the upper using the wrong punch , maybe your mechanic will but good mechanics will use the correct tool . You are full of misinformation and guesses and short on facts yet still argue about a site you evidently have not read . THEY NOT ONLY DON'T OFFER ADVISE ON BARREL INSTALLATION THEY PLAINLY STATE THEY DO NOT FINISH BARRELS . If you want to debate you should purchase or borrow a AR performance barrel and compare with the WO. ( Which I have ) you should seal one with blue loctie and leave the other clean ( which I have ) Don't put out misinformation by repeating internet builders or what you believe and don't argue with people who have experience with something you don't . I enjoy debating facts so after you try sealing a block and shooting a "no name" cheap AR performance barrel let me know and we can discuss your EXPERIENCE. Until then I'm not really interested in your baseless claims .





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    Magdump

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    On this subject I just read an article on gas tube pressures. It depends on several factors like the gas port location (pistol, carbine, mid length, or rifle) and the specific cartridge and propellant used but gas tube pressures can be as high as 12,000 psi very briefly. Clearly it's a brief spike (experts refer to the dwell of the gas impulse) but the pressures of say a 5.56 pistol length are super high. And they recommend you use the longest possible tube length (or barrel port location) possible. For instance the mid length instead of carbine on a 16" 5.56 or .223 Wilde chambered barrel. And why mid length came into existence really, slightly better reliability vs carbine @ a given overall 556/.223 rem barrel length.

    I just never gave it much thought before, that the gas tube working pressures could be so high, tho the dwell is very very brief. But it all makes sense when you consider 5.56x45mm max cartridge internal pressure is 62,000 psi. Much higher than say straight wall cartridges in the AR platform say like .450 Bushmaster. Its max cartridge psi is 38,500. Or the latest straight wall case wildcat, .350 Legend. Bottleneck cartridges working (or peak) pressures are much much greater than straight wall cartridges, what provides the basis of a high velocity round/projectile. 30.06, .270 Winchester, .308 Win, .243 Win, or the venerable 5.56x45mm.

    For anyone who doesn't know better, the AR15 gas impulse/energy rotates and unlocks the bolt from battery in the barrel extension, and cartridge rearward momentum (recoil) does the rest. Drives the BCG rearward compressing the buffer spring, then returns and strips a fresh round and locks the bolt into battery/ready to fire condition.

    And the further that barrel gas port is located down the barrel for a given cartridge, working pressures are lower. And well known barrel manufacturers state the longer gas system length results in better consistency and overall accuracy of a barrel. Especially when you are talking about precision long range shooters. You would not desire a carbine length gas system on a 20" 5.56 or .223 Wilde barrel. And why no one makes such a barrel to my knowledge.

    So I would seriously question the usage of blue Loctite as a sealant on the gas block to barrel mating surfaces. But I have read on line about peeps experiencing initial functional unreliability of a new AR rifle, short stroking or failure to go into battery, and other peeps tell em to run some dirty ammo like Wolf or other Russian manufactured ammo to "seal" or dirty up minor gas leakages @ the gas block. Never experienced this nor tried this method, but it's out there on other forums. The advocates claim it works sometimes.

    Here is an image comparing diff AR-15 gas system lengths (really helpful I find):
    0pqnakx0pebodnfsql6.jpg
    One other mention, carbine gas on different length barrels. While a 16 inch carbine gassed rifle may wind up being over gassed, it’s not unusual for a 10 or 12 barreled rifle with carbine gas system to be under gassed. A friend had his S&W M&P cut down to 10 or 12 inches and ran into cycling issues immediately. He was floored. Spent money on the cut and thread job and ruined a perfectly reliable rifle, he told me.
    I took it and drilled the gas port for him and got it right with a .08 inch bit eventually, (it was just over .06 from the factory) after a couple tries while stepping up the diameter. He didn’t understand that cutting the barrel decreased the dwell which reduced the gas.
     
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    John_

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    Absolutely. The original port size was for a 16" barrel and then when cut down, the dwell time/pulse of the DI was too short. Hence requiring opening up the barrel port to compensate.

    Eugene Stoner never envisioned a 10.5" AR barrel nor a 3.5" of DI dwell time to unlock/rotate the bolt. Least I don't think he did.

    Why I don't own a 10.5" 5.56 AR. Its a freak really. Huge muzzle flash and blast because probably a tenth of the powder charge burns outside of the barrel muzzle. Sure its compact and will kill @ close ranges, but high velocity is the key to 5.56 projectile end terminal performance on humans. Nobody in their right mind would hunt deer or bear with a 10.5" 5.56 AR-15.

    Its great for a show @ the range, muzzle flash and blast. Or impress ur buddies. Put a flaming pig on the end, or just a thread protector.
     
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    troy_mclure

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    Yeah, that is how Colt and FN America assemble their rifles. They manufacture their precision parts and then haul em down to the local auto mechanic shop for assembly.

    Now I grant you it isn't rocket science and the lower assembly is a piece of cake, but wait til you scratch the lower using a regular automotive punch to start/drive in the bolt stop lever small roll pin.

    not that im agreeing or disagreeing with the whole mechanic thing, but, the employees that build them are NOT gunsmiths, they are ASSEMBLY TECHS. they run off an assembly line. lots of videos to watch on the process that the big guys use.
     

    troy_mclure

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    i may have missed it, but another consideration hat was not mentioned was use.

    you want an ultralight carbine, heavy bull barrel target rifle, GP all-around shooter?
    they all have different costs, and build designs.
     

    John_

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    not that im agreeing or disagreeing with the whole mechanic thing, but, the employees that build them are NOT gunsmiths, they are ASSEMBLY TECHS. they run off an assembly line. lots of videos to watch on the process that the big guys use.

    I did not state they are "gunsmiths" in my post, but they (Colt or FN rifle assemblers) have been trained and are proficient in their specific job assignment. Making the assertion that any ole good auto mechanic can properly assemble your AR15 is pretty dumb imo.

    Is the word GUNSMITH anywhere in my post you quoted?
     

    DAVE_M

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    You sir are the one who threw out brand names . Names of people who don't even build AR barrels -just blanks- . Everything I have stated is based on actual experience and everything you have countered with has been what you believe and not what you have experienced. You say a good mechanic will scratch the upper using the wrong punch , maybe your mechanic will but good mechanics will use the correct tool . You are full of misinformation and guesses and short on facts yet still argue about a site you evidently have not read . THEY NOT ONLY DON'T OFFER ADVISE ON BARREL INSTALLATION THEY PLAINLY STATE THEY DO NOT FINISH BARRELS . If you want to debate you should purchase or borrow a AR performance barrel and compare with the WO. ( Which I have ) you should seal one with blue loctie and leave the other clean ( which I have ) Don't put out misinformation by repeating internet builders or what you believe and don't argue with people who have experience with something you don't . I enjoy debating facts so after you try sealing a block and shooting a "no name" cheap AR performance barrel let me know and we can discuss your EXPERIENCE. Until then I'm not really interested in your baseless claims .





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    You really are upset that someone called out the nonsense from a no name barrel maker.
     
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