"budget AR thread" has me thinking

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  • DAVE_M

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    ARs are such precise machines the torque on the barrel nut has to be between 30 ftlbs and 80 ftlbs ( I'm sure you can find other values such as 35 - 80 if you want to argue the size of the window ) . The German torque value is between good-n-snug and good-n-tight .

    Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk

    That’s the TDP spec torque range for a USGI steel barrel nut without shims. Many manufacturers use aluminum barrel nuts with and without shims, and they will specify a torque range to achieve proper tension.

    There is much irony in you believing good-n-snug is okay, but then say you wouldn’t let most so called builders touch your guns.
     

    DAVE_M

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    If you have an auto mechanic friend he can help you build an AR . Some people like to make it sound like an art but it's really simple mechanics .

    So you said a mechanic friend can help you build an AR, because it's "really simple mechanics."

    I guess I should have said a mechanic that is a shooter , is knowledgeable of how firearms work and can follow directions . Seriously , nothing about building an AR is difficult . A 5th grader can lap an upper and the dreaded pivot pin launch can be avoided by inserting a multi hole 1/4 pivot pin in as a alignment tool . Putting hung pins on a door is more complicated .

    Then you said they really need to be a shooter, be knowledgeable of how firearms work, and can follow directions, but then continue to say it's not difficult, because a 5th grader could do it.

    So should they be knowledgeable about the AR platform and be able to follow instructions or should they have the knowledge of a 5th grader, because it's not difficult?

    I will confess that I would not let the majority of the so called mechanics work on my veh . but on the same note I would not let most so called builders touch my guns .

    So if they must only have the knowledge of a 5th grader, why won't you let the "most so called builders" touch your guns? I though it was simple mechanics.
     

    ozarkpugs

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    So you said a mechanic friend can help you build an AR, because it's "really simple mechanics."



    Then you said they really need to be a shooter, be knowledgeable of how firearms work, and can follow directions, but then continue to say it's not difficult, because a 5th grader could do it.

    So should they be knowledgeable about the AR platform and be able to follow instructions or should they have the knowledge of a 5th grader, because it's not difficult?



    So if they must only have the knowledge of a 5th grader, why won't you let the "most so called builders" touch your guns? I though it was simple mechanics.
    Lol . I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought me referring to you as a sexual intellectual was rude and out of line and to them I apologise but your keeping presenting arguments and trying to impress people with your knowledge is proving my observation to be accurate . Putting words in my mouth, so to speak, is an example . I said a fifth grader could lap an upper not build an AR . That said I do not have a problem with 5 the graders having a working knowledge of firearms and IMHO there is no better platform for kids to use hunting than the AR. Most 5th graders can follow directions better than adults but again I did not advocate them building ARs . I'm sorry your mechanical knowledge is limited and you find ARs anything but simple but to a lot of people they are simple mechanics. I do admire the fact that you expand your limitations and are willing to try to learn how to do things you find mechanically complicated though. If you run into problems just get a 5th grader to read the instructions or down load a video for you . I would not be surprised if the moderators shut this down and I must apologise to them for my continuing to respond to your arguments. . You just have to have the last word so tell us what is complicated to you and some of the mechanically inclined members who find them simple can help you . I promise I will let them advise you and not offer my advice .


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    DAVE_M

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    Lol . I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought me referring to you as a sexual intellectual was rude and out of line and to them I apologise but your keeping presenting arguments and trying to impress people with your knowledge is proving my observation to be accurate .

    I'm simply pointing out how ignorant you are. So much so that your only defense when met with opposition is to make an insult, which I think all of us found amusing (myself included). I do come off as a know it all, because I do want to know it all. I want to become better educated and learn. You, on the other hand, seem to only be able to shout that others are wrong, but never actually prove them wrong or even attempt to make a rational thought. You can't say that you enjoy debating facts when the only thing you seem to enjoy is complain that someone doesn't agree with you.

    Putting words in my mouth, so to speak, is an example . I said a fifth grader could lap an upper not build an AR . That said I do not have a problem with 5 the graders having a working knowledge of firearms and IMHO there is no better platform for kids to use hunting than the AR. Most 5th graders can follow directions better than adults but again I did not advocate them building ARs .

    I'm not putting words in your mouth. I quoted every one of your posts. That's how they were interpreted. It would behoove yourself to articulate what you want to say if you want people to understand what you mean.

    I'm sorry your mechanical knowledge is limited

    How can you say my mechanical knowledge is limited when you don't actually know what my knowledge is to begin with?

    I would not be surprised if the moderators shut this down and I must apologise to them for my continuing to respond to your arguments. . You just have to have the last word so tell us what is complicated to you and some of the mechanically inclined members who find them simple can help you . I promise I will let them advise you and not offer my advice .

    I think people are enjoying the back and forth. So long as you can refrain from continuing to insult others this thread likely won't get shut down.

    I don't see many people on your side here, but I digress.
     

    Bosco

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    Lol . I'm pretty sure a lot of people thought me referring to you as a sexual intellectual was rude and out of line and to them I apologise but your keeping presenting arguments and trying to impress people with your knowledge is proving my observation to be accurate . Putting words in my mouth, so to speak, is an example . I said a fifth grader could lap an upper not build an AR . That said I do not have a problem with 5 the graders having a working knowledge of firearms and IMHO there is no better platform for kids to use hunting than the AR. Most 5th graders can follow directions better than adults but again I did not advocate them building ARs . I'm sorry your mechanical knowledge is limited and you find ARs anything but simple but to a lot of people they are simple mechanics. I do admire the fact that you expand your limitations and are willing to try to learn how to do things you find mechanically complicated though. If you run into problems just get a 5th grader to read the instructions or down load a video for you . I would not be surprised if the moderators shut this down and I must apologise to them for my continuing to respond to your arguments. . You just have to have the last word so tell us what is complicated to you and some of the mechanically inclined members who find them simple can help you . I promise I will let them advise you and not offer my advice .


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    Hi friend. I've butted heads with Dave before but never about firearms. I know better. He knows his **** about rifles, specifically AR15's, and if you want to debate with him you better come prepared. If you don't believe me, look at his post history. You'll find thread after thread of him teaching people the proper way to build AR15's. He posts lots of educational threads on which manufacturers do it right and which cut corners with video and picture evidence to back it all up. I may not agree with him about some political issues but I will shut up and listen whenever he talks about firearms. I think anyone who has been on this forum long enough will agree and it's probably why nobody is coming to your defense. Some people in this place might rub you the wrong way but you shouldn't let the emotion of a disagreement cloud your logic. There are times you should just concede and walk away. As someone who's been there, I would suggest you pull the cord.

    78G3.gif
     

    Magdump

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    I haven’t read every post in this thread, prolly not every page even, but I do agree with Ozark on at least a couple of points. I do find the AR platform to be easy to build, repair and modify. But I’ve built and stripped or modified well over a hundred, I’m going to say hundreds at this point. Sometimes someone hands me a box of Chinese parts that give me a challenge or a partial build that went bad and I fix it and I still find it easy. Since 1980 I’ve seen the market go from Colt, Armalite and mil surp rifle kits (GI tear downs missing the lower and a few FCG parts) to about a brazillion parts manufacturers and retailers. I don’t know everything about them by far, especially with all the new calibers and the scads of conditions and demands inherent to each, whether building or shooting or parts available. I’ve learned that there’s more than one correct way to perform most every step in the build process where the end result will be the same. I’ve learned by experience most of what will and won’t work and what you can get away with. There always seems to be a new technique, tool or part every so often that I will either use or not. Of all the firearms that I build, rebuild, repair or modify, they are also the most fun.
    Yes, in the world of gunsmith work, I feel that no more than basic mechanical skills are needed to master the AR platform.
     
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    DAVE_M

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    I don't ever recall stating an AR was difficult to build.

    If I do recall correctly, there was a discussion about misusing products from Henkel Adhesives.
     

    AustinBR

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    Well, I might have just lost brain cells from reading this whole thread. So what it sounds like is that mechanics can build a rifle, but they can't be trusted, unless they have a 5th grade education, and know to use blue glue for everything, except for things that they shouldn't use it on, but need to know how tight to get things, but only within a loose range. Whew.
     

    Magdump

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    Well, I might have just lost brain cells from reading this whole thread. So what it sounds like is that mechanics can build a rifle, but they can't be trusted, unless they have a 5th grade education, and know to use blue glue for everything, except for things that they shouldn't use it on, but need to know how tight to get things, but only within a loose range. Whew.
    Yeah, I feel better that I didn’t read the entire thing.
     

    John_

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    Well, I might have just lost brain cells from reading this whole thread. So what it sounds like is that mechanics can build a rifle, but they can't be trusted, unless they have a 5th grade education, and know to use blue glue for everything, except for things that they shouldn't use it on, but need to know how tight to get things, but only within a loose range. Whew.

    There will be a quiz on this in a few days and Jeff Foxworthy will moderate, so pay attention. Are you smarter than a 5th grader?
     

    ozarkpugs

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    That’s the TDP spec torque range for a USGI steel barrel nut without shims. Many manufacturers use aluminum barrel nuts with and without shims, and they will specify a torque range to achieve proper tension.

    There is much irony in you believing good-n-snug is okay, but then say you wouldn’t let most so called builders touch your guns.
    I stated the 35 minimum was some manufacturers recommend low and 35 = good -n- snug I never said I was happy with that or had a problem with that . I also mentioned 85 = good-n- tite but I never suggested I was happy with that or not happy with that . If you have a problem with the 35 ftlb number take it up with the manufacturers but don't claim I have claimed to be OK with it or not .

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    DAVE_M

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    I stated the 35 minimum was some manufacturers recommend low and 35 = good -n- snug I never said I was happy with that or had a problem with that . I also mentioned 85 = good-n- tite but I never suggested I was happy with that or not happy with that . If you have a problem with the 35 ftlb number take it up with the manufacturers but don't claim I have claimed to be OK with it or not .

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    What are you even talking about?
     

    southerncanuck

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    "budget AR thread" has me thinking

    Well, I might have just lost brain cells from reading this whole thread. So what it sounds like is that mechanics can build a rifle, but they can't be trusted, unless they have a 5th grade education, and know to use blue glue for everything, except for things that they shouldn't use it on, but need to know how tight to get things, but only within a loose range. Whew.

    I can barely keep up... I think you’re supposed to take your car into the shop and then mix red and blue together to make purple loctite?

    I need a drink.
     

    ozarkpugs

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    What are you even talking about?
    (There is much irony in you believing good-n-snug is okay, but then say you wouldn’t let most so called builders touch your guns. ) Since I made it clear that the values were manufacturers recommendations and you seem to feel 35 ftlb or good-n-snug is not ok then you must have a problem with 35 lb as a minimum . I prefer the mid range 50-60 myself but I don't argue with the manufacturers .

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    DAVE_M

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    (There is much irony in you believing good-n-snug is okay, but then say you wouldn’t let most so called builders touch your guns. ) Since I made it clear that the values were manufacturers recommendations and you seem to feel 35 ftlb or good-n-snug is not ok then you must have a problem with 35 lb as a minimum . I prefer the mid range 50-60 myself but I don't argue with the manufacturers .

    Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk

    30-80 ft/lbs is the torque range for a USGI Steel Barrel Nut without shims per the TM. Other manufacturers use other torque ranges and will specify what that range is in the installation instructions. I don't know what you're talking about when you mention good-n-snug, because that's not a torque range. There is no 35 ft/lb minimum. The min-max torque range will be specified in the installation instructions of for an aftermarket handguard unless you are installing a USGI steel barrel nut, in which case you should follow the TM.

    Do you know what the TM is?
     

    ozarkpugs

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    30-80 ft/lbs is the torque range for a USGI Steel Barrel Nut without shims per the TM. Other manufacturers use other torque ranges and will specify what that range is in the installation instructions. I don't know what you're talking about when you mention good-n-snug, because that's not a torque range. There is no 35 ft/lb minimum. The min-max torque range will be specified in the installation instructions of for an aftermarket handguard unless you are installing a USGI steel barrel nut, in which case you should follow the TM.

    Do you know what the TM is?
    I made it clear different manufacturers have different values (the lowest I know of is 30 and highest is 85 ) and made it plain enough a 5th grader could tell I was saying 35 was snug and 85 was tight . The only reason for the min /max is the minimum is as low as the manufacturers feel is enough to maintain adequate retention and the max is as tight as you can go without stretching threads worse. Of course you know that so why are you arguing about what I posted ?

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    DAVE_M

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    I made it clear different manufacturers have different values (the lowest I know of is 30 and highest is 85 ) and made it plain enough a 5th grader could tell I was saying 35 was snug and 85 was tight . The only reason for the min /max is the minimum is as low as the manufacturers feel is enough to maintain adequate retention and the max is as tight as you can go without stretching threads worse. Of course you know that so why are you arguing about what I posted ?

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    Do you know what the TM is?
     

    ozarkpugs

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    30-80 ft/lbs is the torque range for a USGI Steel Barrel Nut without shims per the TM. Other manufacturers use other torque ranges and will specify what that range is in the installation instructions. I don't know what you're talking about when you mention good-n-snug, because that's not a torque range. There is no 35 ft/lb minimum. The min-max torque range will be specified in the installation instructions of for an aftermarket handguard unless you are installing a USGI steel barrel nut, in which case you should follow the TM.

    Do you know what the TM is?
    I stated different manufacturers have different values , are you saying none put 35 as a minimum? Your words " there is no 35 minimum " . The reason I use the old well known terminology "good-n-snug is some people have no clue what 35 ft lbs means but they know what snug is . When asked why

    the gap is so wide I explain that less than 30 is not snug enough and over 80 is tighter than needed and is getting into a range where you might destroy the upper . Since I referred to 35 as good-n- snug and it's within most manufacturers range I question why you say it would be ironic if I had said I was ok with it .

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    DAVE_M

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    I stated different manufacturers have different values , are you saying none put 35 as a minimum? Your words " there is no 35 minimum " . The reason I use the old well known terminology "good-n-snug is some people have no clue what 35 ft lbs means but they know what snug is . When asked why

    the gap is so wide I explain that less than 30 is not snug enough and over 80 is tighter than needed and is getting into a range where you might destroy the upper . Since I referred to 35 as good-n- snug and it's within most manufacturers range I question why you say it would be ironic if I had said I was ok with it .

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    Do you know what the TM is?
     

    John_

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    Is this like the ultimate pissing match? Do you two think for a moment you are going to change the other's mind or opinion?

    At what point do you tap out? say enough is enough? just walk away?
     

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