Justified or not?

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  • thperez1972

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    Something else that comes to mind for me, but with limited info hard to quantify...

    If he was indeed hired to guard the bank or its properties, from the pics I can’t see where a building is close enough to be considered guarding it. If he left his post to go meddle with the protesters this is really not going to end well for him. Or will definitely make it worse in court.

    All the news I've read said he was guarding reporters of a local news station.
     

    Rocko68

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    Wasn't he a little on the small side to be a guard. Couldn't the media hire a more impressive and less push-around looking guy? Yeah I don't know him and sure he could be Billy the badass and none of us knew but given the circumstances and the level of tension,,,I was not impressed with his presence. Also for a not large person, maybe he thought that the el pistola was his only option against a what seemed to be much larger man than himself.
     

    oleheat

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    "Heavy" seems to imply it all started with the slap. This suggests the "security guard" (who according to Andy Ngo didn't hold a legal license) made the first move prior to the slap- and also began drawing his pistol before the victim sprayed him. Hmm...

    11denvershooting-articleLarge.jpg

    EkDjKTqVgAMgfvg


    EkDjKTpVgAE9zdE


    EkDjKTpVkAAWm3c
     

    thperez1972

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    "Heavy" seems to imply it all started with the slap. This suggests the "security guard" (who according to Andy Ngo didn't hold a legal license) made the first move prior to the slap- and also began drawing his pistol before the victim sprayed him. Hmm...

    I don't know much information "heavy" got from witnesses. I'd be curious to find out. The pictures show a segment of time but they don't show what happened before the first picture or after the last picture. In this case, the after doesn't change much and we have an idea as to the before. In one of the videos, you can see biker arguing with the guy keeping him and someone else separated. You then see biker guy walk off in the direction of the guard. If you watch the video close, it appears the biker guy is raising his right arm as he's moving away. He's got the spray in his right arm.

    We know the biker first walked up to the guard. The first picture appears to me to be the guard pushing the biker away as the biker is moving to slap the guard. The second picture is right after the slap. In the third picture, the biker has backed up. It looks like the guard could be reaching for his clothing to draw his weapon. The biker, who had just slapped the guard with an open palm, is now standing in front of him with a clenched fist. The guard just watched the biker get into a previous altercation. It's difficult to know what direction people are moving and when they are moving when it's only pictures. But I do know the narrator's #3 conclusion is not supported by the pictures. It may or may not be true. But the only picture before the slap seems to show the guard attempting to keep the biker from coming closer.
     

    Jlong1691

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    Almost looks like he was doing guard stuff in photo 1. Without context anything said is a crap shoot. I think no matter what, alleged unlicensed guard is going down for this one. Pretty sure it could have been handled without the killing. Now if the Biker was threatening to kill the group, and had already hit alleged fake guard maybe a leg to stand on? Need more context.
     

    RedStickChick

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    It's my understanding that the trigger was pulled before the spray hit the shooter. Someone I know photographed the incident and said the same thing. Any time I've ever encountered paid security for news personnel, they were not armed. Shocking, I know.
     

    Bosco

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    If you look at the video I posted and scroll to 1:25, you'll see the verbal altercation between the victim and the first guy. At 2:41 the victim moves out of frame and and 8 seconds later you hear the pepper spray and gun fired almost simultaneously. Things happened super fast.
     
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    DBMJR1

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    "Heavy" seems to imply it all started with the slap. This suggests the "security guard" (who according to Andy Ngo didn't hold a legal license) made the first move prior to the slap- and also began drawing his pistol before the victim sprayed him. Hmm...

    11denvershooting-articleLarge.jpg

    EkDjKTqVgAMgfvg


    EkDjKTpVgAE9zdE


    EkDjKTpVkAAWm3c

    I don't know much information "heavy" got from witnesses. I'd be curious to find out. The pictures show a segment of time but they don't show what happened before the first picture or after the last picture. In this case, the after doesn't change much and we have an idea as to the before. In one of the videos, you can see biker arguing with the guy keeping him and someone else separated. You then see biker guy walk off in the direction of the guard. If you watch the video close, it appears the biker guy is raising his right arm as he's moving away. He's got the spray in his right arm.

    We know the biker first walked up to the guard. The first picture appears to me to be the guard pushing the biker away as the biker is moving to slap the guard. The second picture is right after the slap. In the third picture, the biker has backed up. It looks like the guard could be reaching for his clothing to draw his weapon. The biker, who had just slapped the guard with an open palm, is now standing in front of him with a clenched fist. The guard just watched the biker get into a previous altercation. It's difficult to know what direction people are moving and when they are moving when it's only pictures. But I do know the narrator's #3 conclusion is not supported by the pictures. It may or may not be true. But the only picture before the slap seems to show the guard attempting to keep the biker from coming closer.

    I'm sitting in the Jury box wishing I had popcorn. Only intelligent arguments are interesting.
     

    ozarkpugs

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    Someone made a good point when they mentioned it may be considered a righteous shooting by some when a cop shoots someone who takes an offensive stance . First I'm not sure that is true in most cases but unless someone is backed into a corner or protecting their property they are not in the same position as a leo. Police are in it for the duration and can't just back away and let the agressor go about their buisness . Well not unless they are BLM protestors and Leo works for a liberal mayor. I don't have an opinion on the justification for the shooting because as others have said not enough information . That said I would like to know what about the claim there was another gun at the scene . Will the shooter say he saw what looked like a gun and thought biker was pulling it on him ?
    To me the 3 pictures in #25 make it apparent biker has taken an attack stance and shooter has assumed a defensive stance . Of course body stance is not the only factor .


    Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk
     

    Bosco

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    Someone made a good point when they mentioned it may be considered a righteous shooting by some when a cop shoots someone who takes an offensive stance . First I'm not sure that is true in most cases but unless someone is backed into a corner or protecting their property they are not in the same position as a leo. Police are in it for the duration and can't just back away and let the agressor go about their buisness . Well not unless they are BLM protestors and Leo works for a liberal mayor. I don't have an opinion on the justification for the shooting because as others have said not enough information . That said I would like to know what about the claim there was another gun at the scene . Will the shooter say he saw what looked like a gun and thought biker was pulling it on him ?
    To me the 3 pictures in #25 make it apparent biker has taken an attack stance and shooter has assumed a defensive stance . Of course body stance is not the only factor .


    Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk

    The black guns matter guy says something about the guy pulling out a knife and then starts shouting "Shoot me then" like the biker said something about a gun. https://youtu.be/_Xg9GLr36Ao?t=129

    The security guard witnessed the whole thing (at least from the start of the video at 1:24) so it's possible he overheard the guy threatening with a gun. It just baffles me why the biker turned his attention on the security guard and within 8 seconds got shot.

    Security guard shown at start of the raw video footage: https://i.imgur.com/zmIM9Bl.png & https://i.imgur.com/VVzujtK.png
     

    falshooter

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    " To me the 3 pictures in #25 make it apparent biker has taken an attack stance and shooter has assumed a defensive stance . Of course body stance is not the only factor . "


    That's not the first picture in the series, only what the media puts out to defend the shooter.
    There's pics on the web showing the shooter leaning over and trying to pull the bear spray away from the now dead guy. He then pulls his hand back( holding the spray can) and bitch slaps the shooter, who thens draws and shoot. That's why the dead guy is backing up and sprays the shooter as he pulls his gun..TOO LATE..
    Instead of bitch slapping him he should have sprayed first
     

    DBMJR1

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    You’re supposed to be outraged that an Antifa spy killed a Trump supporter in cold blood.

    Or that’s the narrative I keep seeing.

    As I said. Only intelligent arguments are interesting.


    I guess Andy Ngo was correct.

    That's going to put a wrinkle in this guy's defense.

    If he's not carrying legally, he shot someone while in commission of a crime.
     

    thperez1972

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    As I said. Only intelligent arguments are interesting.



    I guess Andy Ngo was correct.

    That's going to put a wrinkle in this guy's defense.

    If he's not carrying legally, he shot someone while in commission of a crime.

    I believe he was carrying legally. He had a valid concealed carry permit at the time. He just wasn't working legally. That's a separate issue. It's a bit of a stretch to use an administrative crime as the basis of shooting someone while in the commission of a crime. He had a legal right to be there. He had a legal right to protect others. He had a legal right to carry a concealed weapon. He just could not legally get paid for his work.
     

    DAVE_M

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    If he's not carrying legally, he shot someone while in commission of a crime.

    I believe he was carrying legally. He had a valid concealed carry permit at the time. He just wasn't working legally. That's a separate issue. It's a bit of a stretch to use an administrative crime as the basis of shooting someone while in the commission of a crime. He had a legal right to be there. He had a legal right to protect others. He had a legal right to carry a concealed weapon. He just could not legally get paid for his work.

    As Perez stated, he was carrying legally (according to the news articles), but he did not have the necessary licensing to be carrying a pistol as a security guard.
     

    4-14

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    This is a tough one. If the shooter is found to be the aggressor, he is screwed. Unlike police, citizens can’t shoot someone because they slapped them. But after the slap, it will have to be decided why the gun was pulled. If the gun was pulled as a result to being slapped, it won’t be justified. If it was pulled as a result to potentially being pepper sprayed AFTER being slapped, maybe.

    If the pepper spray’er is found to be the aggressor, I’m pretty sure being blinded, although temporarily, would be considered serious bodily harm. Similar to if someone was trying to choke you out. The incapacitation may be temporary, but it certainly is reasonable that once you are incapacitated, permanent or long-term serious bodily harm has a high likelihood of following.
     

    oleheat

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    How could he be hired by the station through Pinkerton and not hold a proper license? This is a weird story. :doh:
     

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