Justified or not?

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  • Tboy

    Moving forward
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    Jul 14, 2008
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    A recent incident in Denver... private security guard shoots someone who sprayed him with pepper spray. Guard was arrested and pepper spray guy dead.

    Could someone assaulting you with PS be reason to be in fear of your life? It’s a short range non lethal sure, but the follow up actions is what has the potential to become deadly.

    You get sprayed and a mob is around you - does that change things? Your weapon is now theirs. Or soon to be if someone else doesn’t step in to help.

    Not advocating going in either direction but it did make me think about how I’d handle the situation. The guard was paid to be there so he couldn’t necessarily avoid the situation, which is the normal canned response to these sorts of things.


    https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/10/denver-protests-saturday-civic-center-park/

    https://www.insider.com/denver-man-from-right-wing-patriot-rally-killed-security-guard-2020-10
     

    DAVE_M

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    Does being sprayed in the face with OC warrant shooting? No.

    But I also don't know the entire story and didn't read anywhere that stated he was attacked by the mob or someone tried to take his weapon.

    Looks like he was carrying a G19 equipped with a RDS and WML, so I can only assume it was concealed. Did he draw before or after being sprayed? What provoked the deceased to spray the security guard?

    Security guard or not, you shoot someone at a protest where law enforcement is present and you are getting arrested (unless there is some confusion like the Rittenhouse ordeal).
     

    Tboy

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    Would Leo be justified in the same scenario?

    Was not able to find a lot of info about the incident yet. Post it if you find some. Surely there’s a video of the whole thing.

    Found something. Some escalation and the shooting happens to the right of the vid at the end. It happened just off camera in this vid.

    https://youtu.be/4VLL_ZT0MQ0

    Still pics to video.

    https://youtu.be/2EZGPkAm2GM
     
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    340six

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    Just the spray no. But we were not there some said possibly the gun also going to be taken from him putting hi in danger? Was the mob going to also Bum Rush him?
    I am sure some type of recording will show the real facts
     
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    Bosco

    We are the hammer
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    It's been a while since I took the class for conceal carry, but I remember a lot of emphasis on deescalating situations if possible while carrying. If someone gets aggressive towards you, I figure the best course of action is to get out of the situation, not add fuel to the fire.

    If the victim was a crazed man who ran up with a mace can and sprayed it in your face it's one thing to defend yourself. But in this case, the pictures show the guy holding the mace can in his hand during the argument. The initial argument appears to be between two different people.

    At what point do you feel it's too difficult to simply apologize, back away, and stand down? Is it that hard to swallow your pride? Why push the already angry man holding mace to point and spray it at you? Do you just want a reason to draw your weapon on someone?

    In any case, what's done is done, and even if it's ruled as self defense, it's going to be an expensive and painful legal battle.

    Here's a follow up article: https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/11/denver-protest-shooting-suspect-9news-matthew-dolloff/

    UPDATE: Matthew Dolloff (DOB 03-07-1990) is being held for Investigation of First Degree Murder in connection w/the shooting that occurred yesterday at 10 W. 14th Ave. This remains an active investigation; any additional updates will be released as it becomes available. #Denver

    PS I was trying to figure out what the victim's shirt said since it had BLM on it. It says "BLM You're ****ing right biker's lives matter"

    4brEfed.jpg


    3h6OWBo.jpg


    LKSOJ7y.jpg


    qhmZx17.jpg
     
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    Bosco

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    There are already conspiracy theories that the shooter was tied to Antifa.

    Well since his name was released, people started digging up everything they could on him. This article has some info though I don't know how much is fact b/c you never know with the media these days. https://heavy.com/news/matthew-robert-dolloff/

    Most of it makes him look pretty far left but I think the antifa theories are based off his tattoo but they say his facebook shows he got the tattoo in 2012 for a video game

    Police sought to dispel rumors about the suspect. People claimed on Twitter that Matthew Dolloff’s tattoo shows alliance with Antifa, but police disputed that. The wrist symbol is used by some members of Antifa, but it’s also an extremely popular video game that doesn’t have Antifa meaning to many. Another Twitter user dissected that claim and said that Dolloff had the tattoo before the symbol became popular with Antifa. *That’s not what the tattoo is though. This photo is from his facebook and it’s labeled ‘space invaders tat’ and apparently he got in 2012, which is way before the space invaders ‘antifa’ stuff. Sub.mission is a music promotion company that he’s affiliated with,* wrote that Twitter user.

    Denver Police twitter says that investigations so far have not linked him with antifa - https://twitter.com/DenverPolice

    Someone posted the raw video and it seems the guy pulled the trigger the second the spray was released so I guess he had already drawn when the guy pointed it at him or he's the fastest draw in the west

     
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    Forgotten

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    Two questions need to be asked.
    #1 - Was the shooters life in immediate danger of death?
    #2 - Was their a way to leave the situation without the escalation of violence?
     

    Diegotronn

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    An aggressive stance is usually enough for most people to justify a police shooting but suddenly we're questioning if someone pepper spraying you after attacking you is grounds to use your weapon? Of course the situation isn't clear cut and I don't think I would have used or drawn mine but I don't know for sure not do I blame him for what he did.
     

    Kraut

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    So the first still shows some kind of physical contact or altercation, the soon to be deceased subject's hand at the shooter's face as if striking. The protester had left the previous conflict with the "****aroundandfindout" guy in the other video to move to the shooter, making him appear the likely initial aggressor. The shooter's left hand appears to be pointing(?), as if he's maybe saying "put that away," or "don't spray me," or "what's that in your hand?" if he's just walking up and doesn't know what's going on? Maybe his hand just looks that way as he's pushing off. They both take steps back by the next still, creating distance, and the shooter's hands are at his waist as if about to draw. Should he have just backed up further with his charges at this point? The protester had backed up some, too, rather than advancing and continuing an attack, and a clear withdrawal from conflict will usually work against a self-defense claim. There was apparently plenty of room around there to exit that scenario. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes leading up to it, and I wouldn't want to be in his shoes now.
     

    DBMJR1

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    Two questions need to be asked.
    #1 - Was the shooters life in immediate danger of death?
    #2 - Was their a way to leave the situation without the escalation of violence?

    Is there a duty to retreat? Probably in Colorado.


    Everyone is citing this guy's 'Security Guard' status. If this guy was actively working in his capacity as a 'Security Guard', why wasn't he more concerned about protecting his charge, instead of engaging in an argument with a protester?

    Regardless of the question of justification, he failed at his job.
     

    DAVE_M

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    Someone posted the raw video and it seems the guy pulled the trigger the second the spray was released so I guess he had already drawn when the guy pointed it at him or he's the fastest draw in the west

    You could see that happening from the photos. His hands were going for the pistol before the deceased had his hands raised with the canbof bear spray. The bear spray being used was in defense of the shooter producing a pistol. I don’t see this being justified at all.

    Something else to note; Law Enforcement were known to be in the area. They are seen in the video making it to the scene in seconds. If the security guard knew this, why did he think it wise to shoot someone?
     
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    thperez1972

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    Two questions need to be asked.
    #1 - Was the shooters life in immediate danger of death?
    #2 - Was their a way to leave the situation without the escalation of violence?

    Is there a duty to retreat? Probably in Colorado.


    Everyone is citing this guy's 'Security Guard' status. If this guy was actively working in his capacity as a 'Security Guard', why wasn't he more concerned about protecting his charge, instead of engaging in an argument with a protester?

    Regardless of the question of justification, he failed at his job.

    You could see that happening from the photos. His hands were going for the pistol before the deceased had his hands raised with the canbof bear spray. The bear spray being used was in defense of the shooter producing a pistol. I don’t see this being justified at all.

    Something else to note; Law Enforcement were known to be in the area. They are seen in the video making it to the scene in seconds. If the security guard knew this, why did he think it wise to shoot someone?

    It looks like the guard may have reached for his pistol after being battered by the biker. I don't know what led to that but it may help show the biker was the aggressor. There's more information needed before I could say the shooting was justified or not.
     

    DAVE_M

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    It looks like the guard may have reached for his pistol after being battered by the biker. I don't know what led to that but it may help show the biker was the aggressor. There's more information needed before I could say the shooting was justified or not.

    Agreed.

    I’m just doing my civic duty of armchair quarterbacking with the limited information of a few photos and a crappy video.
     

    thperez1972

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    Is there a duty to retreat? Probably in Colorado.


    Everyone is citing this guy's 'Security Guard' status. If this guy was actively working in his capacity as a 'Security Guard', why wasn't he more concerned about protecting his charge, instead of engaging in an argument with a protester?

    Regardless of the question of justification, he failed at his job.

    First of all, I don't have enough information to form a valid opinion regarding guilt or innocence, so my questions are a genuine request for information. From what it looks like, biker gets into verbal altercation with black guns matter guy. There's some bumping chests and a shove or two but no outright fight. From what I can tell, the biker has the spray out and ready to use the entire time. At some point, the biker walked over to the guard. The biker slapped the guard. Pepper spray and gun were used. Did the guy draw his gun in response to the pepper spray or was the pepper spray used in response to the gun? Why did the biker slap the guard?

    Two questions need to be asked.
    #1 - Was the shooters life in immediate danger of death?
    #2 - Was their a way to leave the situation without the escalation of violence?

    #1 - "Immediate danger of death" is rarely the only requirement that would justify self defense by lethal means.
    #2 - That's not relevant in evaluating the actions of the guy. To quote the Colorado Supreme Court from less than 4 months ago, "In light of Colorado’s longstanding no-duty-to-retreat rule, which permits non-aggressors to stand their ground when acting in self-defense, the supreme court holds that it’s improper to argue that a defendant acted unreasonably in self-defense because the defendant failed to retreat from an encounter."
    https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...ation/Supreme_Court/Opinions/2018/18SC708.pdf

    - - - Updated - - -

    Agreed.

    I’m just doing my civic duty of armchair quarterbacking with the limited information of a few photos and a crappy video.

    Gotcha. In that case, hang the f#$%er!
     

    Tboy

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    Something else that comes to mind for me, but with limited info hard to quantify...

    If he was indeed hired to guard the bank or its properties, from the pics I can’t see where a building is close enough to be considered guarding it. If he left his post to go meddle with the protesters this is really not going to end well for him. Or will definitely make it worse in court.

    Scenario above withdrawn....
     
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