ammo 'stash' question

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  • thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    In post 24, I posted a quote from Ayoob's book explaining his position. It has nothing to do with the effectiveness and humane results on a perp. Would you care to address the explanation he presented? His reasoning appears to contradict your accusation that he is in cahoots with the ammo manufacturers.
     

    thperez1972

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    Just let it go Diesel. He’s just trying to get a rise out of you.

    What was it we were we talking about again? Oh yeah, defensive ammo choices. Best bet is to choose like your life depends on it.
    My first time sky diving I let a pro pack my chute. I figured I stood a better chance of surviving that way. Living was more important to me than saving a few dollars or being able to say I packed my own.

    No, they don’t offer a discount for packing your own chute. It’s not even allowed. Neither should EDC involve handloads. But help yourself.

    Once you have completed training and are certified, you can pack your own main chute. In fact, packing your own chute is a requirement to getting a skydiving license. But most places won't let you jump unless your reserve is packed by a certified riggers within the last 6 months.

    So following your skydiving analogy, if you want to carry reloads, you may want to also carry a second gun with certified (factory) rounds.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Dudes, this guy "Massad Ayoob" is merely in cahoots with the ammo manufacturers. Has nothing to do with the effectiveness and humane results on a perp! You can shoot center mass with factory ammo and miss to hit neck, arm, lower abdomen and still inflict pain/injury without death. In other words, the argument in court is NOT going to revolve around ammo used-will be strictly aimed at the justification of it. If an assailant is a victim of one MY own pills, dies or ends up in hospital then the object is to prove the legitimacy of my self defense measures and my burden of proof revolves around the situation thereof. Id' rather be judged by 12 than carried by six!
    The notion that the type of weapon or ammo or any upgrades to a weapon will matter in a court case is not new. But in a case of self defense it is certainly not the mainstay of the prosecution’s case. A DA can’t prosecute someone for defending life and limb. They can only attempt to prove malice. If a person has a strong case for self defense, as you’d see in the event of an armed individual breaking into his home presenting a deadly threat, it won’t matter the means used to defend one’s life or loved ones and shame on any DA for trying. Any defense attorney worth his salt need only ask his client wasn’t it indeed his intention to have what he believed to be the best means of defending his life and loved ones available to him. In the end it doesn’t matter what the weapon is as long as it is legal and deadly force until the threat is stopped is deemed justified. Where we’ve seen people run into trouble is when there’s overkill after the fact. Like the old man who went and put another slug in the girl who broke into his home while she was laying on the floor, likely already mortally wounded. Had he shot her once with a 50 BMG that he legally possessed he likely would’ve had no worries, but standing over her taunting and shooting her again was proven malicious if I remember correctly. It was also easy for the DA to present his case since there was audio recording. I’ve never bought into the idea that Ayoob presents regarding improvements to a gun, using certain ammo, etc. if that were the case, what about training? What about average citizen Joe taking hundreds of hours of training and running drills twice a week for a couple of years shooting at man shaped targets and preparing to shoot a person or people in the act of defending himself? If buying Hornady’s new zombie killer piranha bone saw hollow point +p+ ammunition for your defense weapon can be successfully used against you as sole proof of malicious intent, why not all that lock and load light ‘em up defense training?
    I’ve followed Masaad since the early 90’s and read plenty of his articles over the years and I respect the man’s position on a great many thing. I don’t agree with the notion that your choice of ammo for self defense will make any difference in a clean shoot self defense scenario.
    I left 2 pennies on the counter.
     
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    DAVE_M

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    Firearms Instructors, such as Ayoob, have been called in to be an expert witness in cases. I know a local FI that has already been called into a case, because one of his students was involved in a shooting. The prosecutor will use anything they can against you. You may not necessarily be charged with modifications, ammunition type, or training, but it will be used in an attempt to sway the jury.

    As far as ammo factoring into a good shoot, if you weren’t charged, it doesn’t matter what you used in your defense. Your choice of ammunition will be called into question if you are on trial.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Once you have completed training and are certified, you can pack your own main chute. In fact, packing your own chute is a requirement to getting a skydiving license. But most places won't let you jump unless your reserve is packed by a certified riggers within the last 6 months.

    So following your skydiving analogy, if you want to carry reloads, you may want to also carry a second gun with certified (factory) rounds.
    Glad you saw that was an analogy and no, I would not rely on anyone’s hand loads for EDC.
     

    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    The notion that the type of weapon or ammo or any upgrades to a weapon will matter in a court case is not new. But in a case of self defense it is certainly not the mainstay of the prosecution’s case. A DA can’t prosecute someone for defending life and limb. They can only attempt to prove malice. If a person has a strong case for self defense, as you’d see in the event of an armed individual breaking into his home presenting a deadly threat, it won’t matter the means used to defend one’s life or loved ones and shame on any DA for trying. Any defense attorney worth his salt need only ask his client wasn’t it indeed his intention to have what he believed to be the best means of defending his life and loved ones available to him. In the end it doesn’t matter what the weapon is as long as it is legal and deadly force until the threat is stopped is deemed justified. Where we’ve seen people run into trouble is when there’s overkill after the fact. Like the old man who went and put another slug in the girl who broke into his home while she was laying on the floor, likely already mortally wounded. Had he shot her once with a 50 BMG that he legally possessed he likely would’ve had no worries, but standing over her taunting and shooting her again was proven malicious if I remember correctly. It was also easy for the DA to present his case since there was audio recording. I’ve never bought into the idea that Ayoob presents regarding improvements to a gun, using certain ammo, etc. if that were the case, what about training? What about average citizen Joe taking hundreds of hours of training and running drills twice a week for a couple of years shooting at man shaped targets and preparing to shoot a person or people in the act of defending himself? If buying Hornady’s new zombie killer piranha bone saw hollow point +p+ ammunition for your defense weapon can be successfully used against you as sole proof of malicious intent, why not all that lock and load light ‘em up defense training?
    I’ve followed Masaad since the early 90’s and read plenty of his articles over the years and I respect the man’s position on a great many thing. I don’t agree with the notion that your choice of ammo for self defense will make any difference in a clean shoot self defense scenario.
    I left 2 pennies on the counter.

    It’s not only a DA. One can also become a defendant in a wrongful death civil case.


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    Magdump

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    It’s not only a DA. One can also become a defendant in a wrongful death civil case.


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    Yeah, let’s see, how’s it go again? Judged by 12, carried by 6, or is it carry the 12 and subtract the...
    I’d rather spend my life savings on an attorney than let the bad
    guys kill me and my family. I’ll take my chances in court with the ammo expert.
     

    thperez1972

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    Yeah, let’s see, how’s it go again? Judged by 12, carried by 6, or is it carry the 12 and subtract the...
    I’d rather spend my life savings on an attorney than let the bad
    guys kill me and my family. I’ll take my chances in court with the ammo expert.

    I don’t disagree with you here. If the shtf, what I have is better than what I don’t. But given time to plan, any weapon I would anticipate having to use in a self defense situation is loaded with factory ammo. I don’t see the advice as don’t use reloads if that’s what you have at the time. I think it’s more of don’t make a pre-plan to use them.


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    DAVE_M

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    This goes along with checking the condition of your firearm prior to putting it in your pants for the day.

    Saying I’ll use what I have is a crappy excuse.
     

    Gator 45/70

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    Some of the FTF stuff I've picked up at ranges over the years.
    I'd say most is factory.
    Primer failure being the main factor
     

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    DAVE_M

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    So one round, that has been discontinued for a number of years, and possibly had a light strike or was dropped on the ground, is the basis for your opinion on factory premium defensive ammunition being unreliable.
     

    Gator 45/70

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    It would be wrong to say anyone who thinks that even the best most tactical name brand factory uber doober premium elite ammunition goes bang every time is beyond ignorant.

    It is indeed beyond ignorant.....Thinking about selling this myth,The legendary Black Talon Boolit to some yuppie who was crapping green in his diapers when these were the rage !

    Wadda think,$100 bucks, That's pretty much what regular old practice rounds are selling for?
     

    DAVE_M

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    It would be wrong to say anyone who thinks that even the best most tactical name brand factory uber doober premium elite ammunition goes bang every time is beyond ignorant.

    That would indeed be ignorant. It would also be beyond ignorant to believe any ammunition, reloaded or factory, is impervious to failures. It’s also why malfunction clearance drills are often taught in even the most basic defensive firearms courses. You may know that if you attended training at any point in your life.
     
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