ammo 'stash' question

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  • grantn

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    i've been loading my ammo 'stash', you know the ammo you use for plinking, zombie attack, emergency self defense with fmj and cast lead. does anyone load hollow points for non-carry self defense?
     

    DAVE_M

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    JHP’s are common for folks reloading 9 Major.

    If you want to reload JHP for target use, go for it.

    Don’t reload ammunition for self defense.
     

    Vigilante Sniper

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    I would never use reloads for self defense unless that is all I had. I load lots of 9mm JHP for competition and never had an issue, all inspected and case gauged, but there is also the legal aspect of shooting someone with reloads which I'm sure most knowledgeable gun guys know already.
     

    Redd508

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    ... there is also the legal aspect of shooting someone with reloads which I'm sure most knowledgeable gun guys know already.

    I understand that everyone "knows" this but has there ever been an actual court case? I've looked several times over the years but can't find anything that legitimizes this common knowledge.

    In full disclosure, there is no sarcasm font and I'm not looking for the tired debate of "just because you can, should you" or "you be the first". I'm genuinely curious if anyone can site a case that was successfully prosecuted.
     

    JBP55

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    I prefer carrying LEA proven rounds such as Gold Dot, HST, Critical Duty, PDX1, Golden Saber, etc. to "Roll Your Own Rounds".
     

    DAVE_M

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    I understand that everyone "knows" this but has there ever been an actual court case? I've looked several times over the years but can't find anything that legitimizes this common knowledge.

    In full disclosure, there is no sarcasm font and I'm not looking for the tired debate of "just because you can, should you" or "you be the first". I'm genuinely curious if anyone can site a case that was successfully prosecuted.

    This is because Massad Ayoob has preached that narrative. Whether there have been actual court cases or not is irrelevant, because the simple fact of the matter is that you cannot perform reliable testing to ensure your reloads are effective as a jacketed hollow point defensive round. Pistol rounds suck at stopping people. They are good at poking holes. Unlike rifle rounds, they lack the velocity needed to create permanent cavities in human tissue.



    I prefer carrying LEA proven rounds such as Gold Dot, HST, Critical Duty, PDX1, Golden Saber, etc. to "Roll Your Own Rounds".

    This is the only answer when it comes to defensive ammunition in modern semi-automatic firearms in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP calibers.

    JBP55 understands what goes into testing for self defense/duty rounds. It's not shooting watermelons and milk jugs.

    Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot are the standard in modern defensive ammunition. Don't reload defensive ammunition and don't by gimmicky junk.
     

    Gator 45/70

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    I understand that everyone "knows" this but has there ever been an actual court case? I've looked several times over the years but can't find anything that legitimizes this common knowledge.

    In full disclosure, there is no sarcasm font and I'm not looking for the tired debate of "just because you can, should you" or "you be the first". I'm genuinely curious if anyone can site a case that was successfully prosecuted.

    You're correct,Like you I have never found a case either!
     

    Redd508

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    This is because Massad Ayoob has preached that narrative. Whether there have been actual court cases or not is irrelevant, because the simple fact of the matter is that you cannot perform reliable testing to ensure your reloads are effective as a jacketed hollow point defensive round.

    The legal argument is the only one relevant to my question. The fact that you survive a shooting event to be prosecuted testifies to the fact that your reload was just as effective. "Reliable Testing" is not a disqualifier for the need of any individual to use lethal force to protect themselves. FMJ's or hard cast bullets wont expand, even factory loaded. If you watch enough penetration/expansion videos of factory defensive ammo you will see that they dont always expand as well as the designers hope.
     

    DAVE_M

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    The legal argument is the only one relevant to my question. The fact that you survive a shooting event to be prosecuted testifies to the fact that your reload was just as effective. "Reliable Testing" is not a disqualifier for the need of any individual to use lethal force to protect themselves. FMJ's or hard cast bullets wont expand, even factory loaded. If you watch enough penetration/expansion videos of factory defensive ammo you will see that they dont always expand as well as the designers hope.

    No. Even a .22 short ound severing the spinal cord is enough to end a fight, but it’s not one to count on.

    Which of these penetration/expansion videos are you speaking of? The majority on YouTube don’t follow FBI testing protocol, so it’s also irrelevant. Did you happen to watch the video I shared? It’s full of valuable information from actual experts in the field of ballistics testing.
     

    DAVE_M

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    Granted, Lucky Gunner tests with clear gel rather than the specified organic gel required for the FBI testing, but it's used for the sake of comparison and the ability to film and photograph each test.

    Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot are both rounds that are proven by many LE Agencies across the country. It's safe to say any penetration test showing otherwise is likely flawed.

     

    Redd508

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    Which of these penetration/expansion videos are you speaking of? The majority on YouTube don’t follow FBI testing protocol, so it’s also irrelevant. Did you happen to watch the video I shared? It’s full of valuable information from actual experts in the field of ballistics testing.

    I'm sure your videos are more relevant to industry standards but my statement was not to challenge their relevance nor to bunny trail onto FBI protocols. I'm questioning the "common knowledge" statute that so often gets repeated. If what you believed were not true, would you want to know? "You" not actually being you, speaking rhetorically.

    +1 Lucky Gunner
     
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    DAVE_M

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    I'm sure your videos are more relevant to industry standards but my statement was not to challenge their relevance nor to bunny trail onto FBI protocols. I'm questioning the "common knowledge" statute that so often gets repeated. If what you believed were not true, would you want to know? "You" not actually being you, speaking rhetorically.

    +1 Lucky Gunner

    Okay, I'm tracking now. So to the best of my knowledge, it stemmed from Massad Ayoob's teachings and gun store fudd lore. Massad Ayoob claimed that in a trial he was an expert witness in, the shooter inevitably went to jail, but it was noted by the attorneys that had he used factory ammunition, he may have walked. Now I don't know the full story behind it, nor have I read to court documents, but it's out there.

    There isn't a single statute in the state of Louisiana that makes it a crime to use reloaded ammunition in a firearm. Anyone using reloaded ammunition in a defensive firearm for self defense is doing so out of ignorance.

    For years, I’ve warned people that there are a couple of serious concerns with using handloaded ammunition for personal or home defense. The big one is forensic replicability when the shooter is accused, and opposing theories of distance become a factor.

    How often does this happen? One time some years ago, that question came up on an internet debate. I looked through the ten cases I had pending at the time as an expert witness, and gunshot residue (GSR) testing to determine distance from gun muzzle to the person shot was an issue in four of them. Forty percent is not what I’d call statistically insignificant.

    I’ve found this to be perhaps the most visceral and contentious of gun forum debates. When I suggest to someone that the ammo he crafted himself might be a handicap in court, it’s as if they had just prepared a Thanksgiving feast for their family from scratch, and I’d told them *Don’t poison your family with that crap, go out and buy them some KFC.*

    They react as if you had told them they had ugly babies.

    Here are two very good writeups, at least one by an attorney, explaining how and why handloaded ammunition can muddy the waters if and when you find yourself in court after a self-defense shooting:

    https://www.glocktalk.com/a/the-peculiar-problem-of-handloads-in-self-defense-shootings.18/

    and

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/carrying-handloads-for-self-defense.618021/

    Read, and if you have any friends who use handloads for serious social purposes, please share. You might just save them from the sort of nightmare suffered by the defendant in New Jersey v. Daniel Bias, who was bankrupted by legal fees before the first of his three trials was over, and wound up serving hard time. Both of his attorneys were convinced he was innocent, and told me they believed that if he had simply had factory ammo in his home defense gun, the case would probably never have even gone to trial.
     

    ozarkpugs

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    i've been loading my ammo 'stash', you know the ammo you use for plinking, zombie attack, emergency self defense with fmj and cast lead. does anyone load hollow points for non-carry self defense?
    I guess I am a little confused by the whole question . What is emergency self defense and when is self defense not an emergency and why would self defense ammo be different for non carry -v- carry ? Hollow points are my choice for self defense at home and on the road . As far as reload v factory I have experienced several factory rounds fail to fire or stay put in case and never had one of my reloads fail to fire or bullet stay put . I use factory loads for playing but when my life is on the line I prefer the person who loaded my bullets to do so as their life depended on it going bang and that's me .

    Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk
     

    Gator 45/70

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    I guess I am a little confused by the whole question . What is emergency self defense and when is self defense not an emergency and why would self defense ammo be different for non carry -v- carry ? Hollow points are my choice for self defense at home and on the road . As far as reload v factory I have experienced several factory rounds fail to fire or stay put in case and never had one of my reloads fail to fire or bullet stay put . I use factory loads for playing but when my life is on the line I prefer the person who loaded my bullets to do so as their life depended on it going bang and that's me .

    Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk

    +10,000 None of the factory loads come with 100% Guarantee,

    We re-loaders and casters are not standing in line at 8am waiting on our allotted 2 boxes of 9's..Or paying for high dollar ammo.

    Some simply don't have the ability to focus of a ''hobby''
     

    jkingrph

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    No. Even a .22 short round severing the spinal cord is enough to end a fight, but it’s not one to count on.

    That would most likely have to be a shot to the back. I would not care to have to defend that one.
     

    southerncanuck

    www.RangeSport.com (Use code "BayouShooter")
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    The legal argument is the only one relevant to my question. The fact that you survive a shooting event to be prosecuted testifies to the fact that your reload was just as effective.

    As best I understand it, as noted, the debate about the legalities of handloads has nothing whatsoever to do with stopping power, efficacy or reliability. That's certainly a debate, but it's not the relevant legal one. I'm paraphrasing the argument as I understand it, but the essential gist is that with handloaded ammunition, you have no way of proving exactly what it was that you shot. Factory ammo is verifiable in forensic testing. Handloads and your notes are not.

    From Deadly Force, p217-218: Many self-defense shootings occur at *powder burning distance* and leave gunshot residue on the body or clothing of the opponent. If the other side falsely argues that he wasn’t close enough to hurt you when you fired, gunshot residue (GSR) on his body or clothes may prove otherwise. But to get that evidence in, your defense team will have to do scientific GSR testing within the rules of evidence, which encompass impartial third-party verification. When you loaded your own ammo and that becomes an issue, you probably won’t be able to get it in... I’ve found this to be the single most contentious argument on the firearms internet. You tell someone the ammo they made themselves may not be the right choice, and they take it personally. I get it. But personal pride has to take second place to family responsibility. If you’re falsely accused and can’t prove that you’re telling the truth, it’s your family that will suffer with you through the trial, your possible long imprisonment, and possible terrible financial loss... the forensic verification problem is huge: in almost a decade of internet arguments, no handload fan has ever been able to show me a case where a court accepted a handloader’s word or records when it came down to GSR testing to determine distance to figure out which side was telling the truth...occur; research New Jersey v. Daniel Bias for the forensic side, and New Hampshire v. James Kennedy for the *deadly bullets* argument.

    Personally, I really can't see the big deal with sticking factory ammo in your self-defense weapon for an extra dollar or two to avoid a buffet of potential issues. Factory ammo is good enough for every single law enforcement agency on the continent.
     
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