ammo 'stash' question

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  • Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Dec 31, 2013
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    I’ll agree, reloads are for target practice, but if I found myself under siege and by some extreme stretch of the imagination I ran out of defensive loads, I’d start sending any live ammo at hand toward the threat.
    That being said, I’ve successfully deer and pig hunted with hand loads for about 40 years. My first hand load kill was with a mag fed Savage Springfield bolt action 30-30 that I wanted a better bullet for, but it did not exist. After finding a nice pointed soft tip and testing some loads, I got to prove it in the field with the added reach and a clean kill.
    How about another scenario, You only have the choice of your hand loaded HP ammo or factory ball handgun ammo in a firefight? No explanation necessary for your answers. I know what I’d grab. Factory FMJ FTW!
     
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    Dieselhorses

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    Seriously?

    Dudes, this guy "Massad Ayoob" is merely in cahoots with the ammo manufacturers. Has nothing to do with the effectiveness and humane results on a perp! You can shoot center mass with factory ammo and miss to hit neck, arm, lower abdomen and still inflict pain/injury without death. In other words, the argument in court is NOT going to revolve around ammo used-will be strictly aimed at the justification of it. If an assailant is a victim of one MY own pills, dies or ends up in hospital then the object is to prove the legitimacy of my self defense measures and my burden of proof revolves around the situation thereof. Id' rather be judged by 12 than carried by six!
     
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    DAVE_M

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    Dudes, this guy "Massad Ayoob" is merely in cahoots with the ammo manufacturers. Has nothing to do with the effectiveness and humane results on a perp! You can shoot center mass with factory ammo and miss to hit neck, arm, lower abdomen and still inflict pain/injury without death. In other words, the argument in court is NOT going to revolve around ammo used-will be strictly aimed at the justification of it. If an assailant is a victim of one MY own pills, dies or ends up in hospital then the object is to prove the legitimacy of my self defense measures and my burden of proof revolves around the situation thereof. Id' rather be judged by 12 than carried by six!

    I don’t care for some of what Massad Ayoob has to say, but if you truly believe he says what he says for ammo sales, then you are beyond ignorant.
     

    thperez1972

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    https://gundigest.com/handguns/concealed-carry/handloads-not-a-good-idea-for-concealed-carry

    Anti-gun types have attacked our ammo as well as our firearms since long before I came on the scene. It happens in the press, it happens in State Houses, and yes, it also happens in the courts. “Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, he established malice when he loaded his gun with hollow-nose dum-dum bullets, designed to rend and tear brutal wounds and cause horrible pain and suffering and ensure the agonizing death of his victim!” It happens more routinely than you’d think in armed citizen shooting trials, though rarely in police shooting cases since hollow points became the law enforcement standard.

    This argument is, no pun intended, easy to shoot down…if your lawyer knows how. We simply establish that you chose the same type of ammo as the police, for the same reasons. With hollow points, the bullets are less likely to over-penetrate the body of the dangerous felon and strike down unseen innocent bystanders, and also less likely to ricochet and create unintended additional victims. Moreover, since collective experience shows us the improved stopping effect of the HP (hollow point) ammo means the bad guy will have to be shot fewer times to neutralize his violent activity, he is relatively less likely to die of his wounds. However, the argument in favor of hollow point ammo is useless if not effectively presented by the defense. Famed appellate lawyer Lisa Steele has seen defendants convicted with this argument when their trial lawyers failed to neutralize the poison. So have I. This apparently happened in the Arizona case mentioned above, contributing to what I for one believe was a wrongful conviction.

    While it’s a slam-dunk to defend your use of hollow point ammo, the use of handloads in a shooting presents much more serious problems to your defense team. Defensive shootings are often very close-range affairs in which gunshot residue (GSR) from your muzzle is deposited on your attacker’s body or clothing. This can become a critical evidentiary factor if the other side insists he was too far away from you to endanger you at the moment he was shot. The distance testing is done with exemplar ammunition, that is, ammo identical to what was in your gun, but not the same exact cartridges. Don’t count on the crime lab testing the remaining rounds from your weapon as taken into evidence at the shooting scene. If the fight was sufficiently intense, there may not be any rounds left in the gun that saved your life. Even if there are remaining cartridges in evidence, they may not be tested. The prosecutor can argue, “Your honor, firing those cartridges consumes them! It’s destructive testing! The defense is asking the Court’s permission to destroy the evidence! You cannot allow it!” Do you think that’s a BS argument? So did I…until I saw a judge accept it, in a case where handloads were used in the death weapon, but the state crime lab tested with a much more powerful factory load, based on the headstamp on the reloaded casings. That gave a false indication of distance involved, and the defendant – whom I have strong reason to believe was innocent – was convicted of manslaughter.

    You’d think the court would take the reloader’s records into account and allow testing based on that. It doesn’t happen. No one has yet been able to offer a case where the Court took the reloader’s data or word for what was in the load. It’s seen as self-serving “evidence” that can’t be independently verified. Sort of like a rape suspect saying, “I couldn’t have done it, because it says right here in my own diary that I was somewhere else that day.”

    After seeing these things in court, I learned to avoid the use of handloads for defensive purposes.

    I almost forgot another quote, although I can't verify the authenticity of this one:

    Massad Ayoob said:
    I'm a shill for the factory ammunition industry.
     
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    Gator 45/70

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    I’ll agree, reloads are for target practice, but if I found myself under siege and by some extreme stretch of the imagination I ran out of defensive loads, I’d start sending any live ammo at hand toward the threat.
    That being said, I’ve successfully deer and pig hunted with hand loads for about 40 years. My first hand load kill was with a mag fed Savage Springfield bolt action 30-30 that I wanted a better bullet for, but it did not exist. After finding a nice pointed soft tip and testing some loads, I got to prove it in the field with the added reach and a clean kill.
    How about another scenario, You only have the choice of your hand loaded HP ammo or factory ball handgun ammo in a firefight? No explanation necessary for your answers. I know what I’d grab. Factory FMJ FTW!

    I'm a big fan of cast boolits for game,Gives a certain satisfaction knowing you can bring home dat bacon.....
    Everything I have shot with the big old 330 grain cast HP's has stayed plaa-kayed right there on the spot !
     

    Core

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    Mar 5, 2011
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    My 2 Cents

    So millions have loaded hunting cartridges yet you feel as though defense cartridges should not be reloaded? As a kid my local gun shop owner loaded cowboy for his lever gun and revolvers. He taught me how easy the cowboy loads were to make and shoot: nearly every visit we would go to his backyard steel range and shoot any number of lever rifles and DA/SA revolvers.

    I can only imagine the millions of animals and God knows how many people have been killed by black-powder cartridges. Now the nitro powder adding a great deal of energy, and with plenty of proven cartridge data I feel as though claiming "folks should not load for defense is quite silly." Personally speaking I feel more confident in my ability to QC my own loads than the factory. Loading is not magic, it's really about following a recipe and maintaining QC: and it becomes a craft/art eventually like anything. Some of the best long range shooters out there load their own, and that's what gives them the edge taking additional QC steps and doing things that are cost prohibitive at a factory. I have purchased loads for pistols in the past from several local small scale loaders and I have experienced some pressure variations: but they all went bang. I have had more failures to fire with factory ammo by a long shot. I used to buy many 500rd bags of .45 Auto FMJ, JHP, and WC, and never had any issues from my local loader.

    Additionally, this nonsense that pistols are bad at killing is really silly. I agree conventional pistol cartridges cannot kill as well as rifle cartridges: I have to state the obvious. I just had someone on another forum talking smack about my service running an MP5SD in the Navy doing VBSS with FMJs. Because he felt pistol calibers are not good at killing. I feel like we are living in a fantasy world on the internet these days with these conversations. I worked with the Teams and Raiders often doing VBSS, we had a hostile non compliant boarding where one guy made a headshot kill with an MP5N at a good distance we guesstimated approx 180 meters or so. I would aim for the body and ride it to the head CQB if there were no hostages or friendlies in the background: very efficient. I understand why pistols are not used in open country: I would opt for longer barrel lengths myself. How are you going to suppress a SBR in a car? You're not unless you have subsonic, and will likely have reliability issues. Pistol calibers have their place in the unconventional spectrum of warfare, and I believe in solo defense. I don;t know anyone who can carry and deploy a PDW as fast as a pistol in a vehicle, nor anyone who would want to tote one around day in and day out. I would say like we were trained years ago: the pistol is used to fight back to your rifle, and some folks cannot carry a AR around legally thanks to these communist Democrat leaders taking Dark Money to look the other way in the courts and legislation.

    If you are not competent to load your own that's fine: but don't perpetuate a myth as truth because it happens to be a trend rooted in half-truth. I want to agree with you on this subject but it's simply not true, yet most who cannot load proficiently should avoid loading cartridges period. In my area I am more likely to get killed by a game animal than a criminal, yet I used to buy all of my hunting ammo from a LGS loader who could load better ammo than the boxes of Remington, Winchester, and Federal he sold. I used to have him make me loads for hunting, that were unobtainable in the 1980's.

    I don't think anyone who has EVER got caught with an auto burst of 9mm from an MP5 would brag about how ineffective it was. I knew a kid who was shot 16 times with 9mm in a gang drive-by, It was a Tec-9 to my recollection: he ended up dying several times and coming back, he has permanent brain trauma and had many surgeries. He went down and was unable to run away. I know guys from the military who survived 7.62x39 and all other sorts of rifle calibers. An admiral friend of mine was shot in the eye and survived.

    IF you do not plant a round in the vitals most calibers will not stop a threat. This has been common knowledge since muzzle loaders shooting .56 caliber ball and .52 caliber cone hunted North American game. We saw a recent example of a guy hit in the bicep with a .223, and it was essentially torn off and he was still able to hold his Glock. Yet people die daily from accidental shots to CNP's to the head and spine from calibers as low as .22 The longest standing DOJ study showed .22-.32 calibers to be the prominent lethal cartridges involved in homicides due to sheer numbers being used in crime and defense: these are pocket pistols essentially. The lethality of larger conventional pistol cartridges increases with diameter and velocity (bigger is slightly better with pistols) due to the lack of kinetic energy (mentioned above).

    Savvy?
     

    340six

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    Reloads at the range. New ammo carry nut also shoot some of what you carry for 2 reasons.
    One make sure tgey worl on the firearm and two get used to them and where they hit on target. As they will not shoot the same.
    My wife likes the Nosler 9mm match HP.
    They are not hot defence ammo. Are lightly loaded but she is comfortable with them and could do a follow up shot with them
    I know of 3 persons who carry guns they have never shot and only the factory has crazy as,it is.
    One has a Glock 27 Gen 2 he bought new at Elliot's mid 90s ibwoukd guess. And carries it since new, never shot it ever. Says the factory tried it so he knows it works.
    Not everyone is Dirty Harry!
     

    DAVE_M

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    Not worth responding to someone who insinuates that someone is *beyond ignorant*.


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    You cannot prove he is paid by every ammunition manufacturer of premium defensive ammunition. It’s fairly apparent you don’t know much about the man. So it wouldn’t be far from the truth to say you are in fact ignorant.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Reloads at the range. New ammo carry nut also shoot some of what you carry for 2 reasons.
    One make sure tgey worl on the firearm and two get used to them and where they hit on target. As they will not shoot the same.
    My wife likes the Nosler 9mm match HP.
    They are not hot defence ammo. Are lightly loaded but she is comfortable with them and could do a follow up shot with them
    I know of 3 persons who carry guns they have never shot and only the factory has crazy as,it is.
    One has a Glock 27 Gen 2 he bought new at Elliot's mid 90s ibwoukd guess. And carries it since new, never shot it ever. Says the factory tried it so he knows it works.
    Not everyone is Dirty Harry!
    Absolutely.
    I’d never carry a weapon or ammo that has not been proven in my hand until I’m content with function and reliability. I also am known to have a lot of redundancy in my collection that people just can’t understand. I will wear out a pistol at the range and carry its twin after it’s been proven. The one I depend on for defensive purposes just doesn’t get to see thousands of rounds down the pipe.
     

    340six

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    Absolutely.
    I’d never carry a weapon or ammo that has not been proven in my hand until I’m content with function and reliability. I also am known to have a lot of redundancy in my collection that people just can’t understand. I will wear out a pistol at the range and carry its twin after it’s been proven. The one I depend on for defensive purposes just doesn’t get to see thousands of rounds down the pipe.
    Bingo. I have been at big box stores a few times and watch guys buy new guns n just but HP Hot ammo. I was what do you think I should get? So I asked one do you have some round nose at home nope? He says why? I said to get used to the gun and I would also buy 2 boxes of HP and shot one to make sure it feeds them. I would suck if they did not and you had to use it and had them jamb. He and his wife both said wow you want us to waste all that $ on ammo fur a new gun that was tested at the factory there is a used bullet to show it works. And some come with two :eek3: :rolleyes:
     

    Fugum

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    Bingo. I have been at big box stores a few times and watch guys buy new guns n just but HP Hot ammo. I was what do you think I should get? So I asked one do you have some round nose at home nope? He says why? I said to get used to the gun and I would also buy 2 boxes of HP and shot one to make sure it feeds them. I would suck if they did not and you had to use it and had them jamb. He and his wife both said wow you want us to waste all that $ on ammo fur a new gun that was tested at the factory there is a used bullet to show it works. And some come with two :eek3: :rolleyes:

    Unfortunately, that happens way more than it should. Personally, I would never carry a gun that didn't have somewhere between 500 and 1000 absolutely trouble free rounds through it, including SD ammo. The worst time to find out it doesn't function properly would be in the unlikely event you need it for self defense.
     

    Magdump

    Don’t troll me bro!
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    Not worth responding to someone who insinuates that someone is *beyond ignorant*.


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    Just let it go Diesel. He’s just trying to get a rise out of you.

    What was it we were we talking about again? Oh yeah, defensive ammo choices. Best bet is to choose like your life depends on it.
    My first time sky diving I let a pro pack my chute. I figured I stood a better chance of surviving that way. Living was more important to me than saving a few dollars or being able to say I packed my own.

    No, they don’t offer a discount for packing your own chute. It’s not even allowed. Neither should EDC involve handloads. But help yourself.
     
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    DAVE_M

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    Just let it go Diesel. He’s just trying to get a rise out of you.

    No, I’m not. I don’t even like Massad Ayoob, but I’m well aware of his background, his books, his courses, and his stance on reloaded ammunition. Making the comment that Massad Ayoob is *in cahoots* with the ammunition industry is comical to say the least. I’m surprised this is even being argued.

    It’s well known that LE agencies at the state, local, and federal levels adhere to the FBI’s ballistics testing protocol. They also typically go beyond that and perform their own testing to make a determination on which rounds they will approve for duty. Do you really think a firearms instructor like Massad Ayoob has influence over every single agency? That’s a stretch of the imagination.

    The case for not using reloaded ammunition has been presented by multiple members here, even a former LEO agreed it’s a bad idea. Multiple sources on why it’s a bad idea have been cited and links have been presented. I don’t care to argue specifically with one person, or anyone for that matter, but I call out incorrect information when it shows up.

    Why you even bothered to comment is questionable.
     
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