Magazine or no magazine??

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  • WhereIsIt?

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    I have been trying to decide between the Omega AR12, Kel Tec KSG and the Black Aces Bullpup. I like that the Kel Tec can hold 14 rounds and not have a magazine. It is harder to find and costs more at the moment. From the reviews the black aces seems to be pretty reliable, its a semi auto but I am not sure if I want to deal with having a magazine. I could be wrong but wouldn't a magazine increase the chance of jam ups? Both are overall pretty short and easy to carry. I'd want this for home defense, easy for my wife to grab and just shoot if something were to ever happen at the house and well fun to take to the range every so often.

    The Omega AR 12 I do not know much about other then its a semi auto, uses a magazine and is longer then the other two. Local shop says they have two of them. Though I'm sure by the time I make a decision, they will be sold.
     

    Magdump

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    Tube fed guns are great, but if you can find a shotgun compatible with drum mags, that can be fun too. The Saiga can be pretty decent. Yeah, quite the delima. Better get both.
     

    WhereIsIt?

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    Tube fed guns are great, but if you can find a shotgun compatible with drum mags, that can be fun too. The Saiga can be pretty decent. Yeah, quite the delima. Better get both.

    There is a black aces with a drum that is posted for sale and it's local. I like the idea that its semi auto and a 20 round drum would be fun.
     

    DAVE_M

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    I could be wrong but wouldn't a magazine increase the chance of jam ups?

    In general, magazines for rimmed cartridges and shotgun shells can be finnicky. I've run Saigas with 20 round drums that shot well, but you're talking about a massive firearm that is more or less an AK chambered in 12 ga. I have no experience with box magazine fed shotguns outside of those type shotguns. Magazine tube fed shotguns tend to more reliable. Current technology allows malfunctions to be cleared simply by cycling the action. Since you want this for home defense, I highly recommend looking into acquiring a tube fed shotgun and taking a shotgun specific course.

    I also suggest listening to this podcast. The panel includes Tim Chandler, Steve Fisher, Matt Haught, Rob Haught, Chuck Pressburg, and Adam Roth.

     

    shrxfn

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    I have no personal experience with this but I have heard on the Interwebs that you don't want to leave a magazine with 12ga shells loaded in it as they will swell. May want to do some research on this and see if it is really an issue.
     

    jwalker814

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    Avoid the KSG. The force required to cycle the gun can be too much and your wife may end up short stroking it under pressure. Not to mention the force required to put it back into battery is kind of tricky.

    The stroke is no where close to a traditional pump shotgun and you both will end up hating the gun.

    Cant go wrong with a traditional pump with an extended tube and/or run the mini shells to damn near double the capacity. but remember you may need an adapter for the minishells to cycle correctly. ($15 part)
     
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    I have 2 pumps (MB 590 with speed feed stock and KSG) and 2 SA's (Bereta 1301 tactical LE and Saiga 12 with mags and drum). All 4 work as intended (as stated above, the KSG takes some effort to ensure proper function but takes very little practice to master - maybe not the best choice for your wife unless she is dedicated). For house clearing I'd go with the KSG for size and capacity. For hiding behind furniture or in a closet I like the 590 or 1301. For zombies or suppressive fire I like the S12. Finished rambling.......
     

    Jstudz220

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    As a former owner of a KSG and current owner of the black aces bull pup I already gave you my opinion on the two so no need to go further into that here however I would like to ask has your wife fired 12 gauges before? Also like @jwalker814 mentioned the kel tec is definitely harder to cycle than any other pump action shotgun I’ve handled before. These weren’t issues In my household personally because my wife wouldn’t be defending the house with a 12 gauge if we were in that position.

    regardless of which one you chose to go with before making it your primary home defense weapon or your wife’s primary home defense weapon I would recommend getting plenty of practice with it first. Until then I would keep whatever other firearm you currently have for this role.
     

    WhereIsIt?

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    In general, magazines for rimmed cartridges and shotgun shells can be finnicky. I've run Saigas with 20 round drums that shot well, but you're talking about a massive firearm that is more or less an AK chambered in 12 ga. I have no experience with box magazine fed shotguns outside of those type shotguns. Magazine tube fed shotguns tend to more reliable. Current technology allows malfunctions to be cleared simply by cycling the action. Since you want this for home defense, I highly recommend looking into acquiring a tube fed shotgun and taking a shotgun specific course.

    I also suggest listening to this podcast. The panel includes Tim Chandler, Steve Fisher, Matt Haught, Rob Haught, Chuck Pressburg, and Adam Roth.



    Thanks for the info and video!

    Avoid the KSG. The force required to cycle the gun can be too much and your wife may end up short stroking it under pressure. Not to mention the force required to put it back into battery is kind of tricky.

    The stroke is no where close to a traditional pump shotgun and you both will end up hating the gun.

    Cant go wrong with a traditional pump with an extended tube and/or run the mini shells to damn near double the capacity. but remember you may need an adapter for the minishells to cycle correctly. ($15 part)

    I was worried about the force it would take to cycle it. It's why I really want a semi auto. I first started looking at the fn mk1 tactile. There is a competition version that's for sale here. Seems to be the same just no pistol grip. My thoughts were a shorter shotgun would be easier to handle in a house.
     

    WhereIsIt?

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    As a former owner of a KSG and current owner of the black aces bull pup I already gave you my opinion on the two so no need to go further into that here however I would like to ask has your wife fired 12 gauges before? Also like @jwalker814 mentioned the kel tec is definitely harder to cycle than any other pump action shotgun I’ve handled before. These weren’t issues In my household personally because my wife wouldn’t be defending the house with a 12 gauge if we were in that position.

    regardless of which one you chose to go with before making it your primary home defense weapon or your wife’s primary home defense weapon I would recommend getting plenty of practice with it first. Until then I would keep whatever other firearm you currently have for this role.

    She has never shot one but I planned on taking her to the range to practice. All I have is glock 43x for edc and a Ruger p85 I was given by my dad 15yo ago. I grew up shooting guns whenever I wanted just never bought any before the 43x that I just got . So all this is kinda new to me on what to get.

    I am a veteran. So I have till Nov 11 to get the blue label for glock. I was considering that.
     
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    krotsman

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    As a former owner of a KSG and current owner of the black aces bull pup I already gave you my opinion on the two

    Can you paste your opinions of the two for the group? I'm looking at the BA Bullpup and the KSG and would like to hear your opinions on both. If it's in another string, please point me to it.
     

    jwalker814

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    Thanks for the info and video!



    I was worried about the force it would take to cycle it. It's why I really want a semi auto. I first started looking at the fn mk1 tactile. There is a competition version that's for sale here. Seems to be the same just no pistol grip. My thoughts were a shorter shotgun would be easier to handle in a house.



    Based off of your thought process of in home manipulation. I would still suggest a traditional pump shotgun. however save some money and venture down into 20g and grab you a youth chassis. my go to for home defense shotgun will always be my first gun purchase. a MB youth 500 20g. which i of course got on my 18th bday :naughty:

    You still get the sound of a shotty cycling. Ammo is cheaper and easier to acquire as people tend to forget 20g. Recoil is lighter. Gun is lighter. Youth chassis is smaller. You can still get your typical slug/buck shells. The 500 20g is just as customizable as the 12g 500. AND at the end of range day your wife's shoulder will thank you in turn leading to more practice. ;)
     

    dmiculek

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    Here's another option for those wanting a magazine fed autoloader: RIA VR80
     

    Magdump

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    Only auto defensive type shotguns I own are a Saiga and a mossberg 930 SPX. They’re both great guns and the FN would be my next choice. That being said I’m sticking with what I know, Mossberg 500/590 pump guns have served me well and I don’t have any problems with them. I definitely favor the 20ga argument for anyone concerned with recoil and or size. The Mrs can operate the 20ga security just fine and anyone who thinks the round is inferior to any common handgun round for defending yourself is very mistaken. Around 500+ grains of lead moving at 1300+fps (conservative estimates!) at in-house distances will pack quite a punch. If you have any doubt about how they pattern there’s no better way to understand what the gun will do than actually shooting at 10-50 feet. It may come as a shock how tight the patten will be at 25 feet, which may cover the biggest room in your house. 3 buck from a 20ga in even the milder loads= twenty 25 cal (1/4 inch) pellets moving at 1200fps. Spread those 20 pellets into a 2 to 4 inch group and try to get a mental picture of a center mass hit.
    I have a Stevens 320 that cycles and shoots the short shells as well as any standard size. I also have the opsol plug in a couple of my 500’s, which renders the gun a dedicated mini shell shotgun at that point (You can easily remove the plug in an instant with a finger) and the mini shells’ effectiveness is too far below a standard load to consider them for defense. For these reasons, I don’t count on that setup for home protection.
     

    DAVE_M

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    If you go 12 ga over 20 ga, I highly recommend picking up some Federal Law Enforcement Flight Control 00 Buck in 8 or 9 pellet loads. I recently patterned an 18.5" 870 cylinder bore barrel from 5 to 25 yards and I was extremely impressed with how tight it is.

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    50534211263_eb61c98f08_b.jpg
     

    WhereIsIt?

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    Really appreciate all the feed back from all of you. Looks like I might need to rethink all this. Maybe buy something for home defense only and get something for fun to.
     

    Jstudz220

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    I had a couple of people ask me to post my opinion on the kel tec ksg and black aces bull pup so I’ll do that here.

    Imo both are great guns and in a perfect world I would have kept both of them. I bought the black aces bullpup after shooting a couple of them my cousin owns for a weekend. Typically I’m not a fan of semi auto shotguns but his won me over. They fed anything I loaded into them and continued to cycle the 20rd drums without issue. Over a weekend of shooting the ba bullpup we put maybe 250 shells through each without a single hiccup. After that I decided to sell my ksg to buy one and still have some extra money left laying around.

    I don’t have any complaints about the kel tec other than I feel it’s way overpriced. In my time of owning mine a probably put 500 shells through it and the only hiccups I ever had were easily fixed by cycling it again. A handful of times I wouldn’t cycle it with enough force and it would cause some minor malfunctions but other than that it was pleasant shooting.

    my opinion on the two is save the money and go with the bullpup. If you don’t like the idea of semi auto then get the pump version. A lot of guys get caught up on $ amount and don’t realize that some of the most reliable shotguns in the world are sub $500 such as the Mossberg 500, Remington 870, or even the Maverick 88 or Savage Stevens 320. I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to defend my home and family with a Stevens 320 or Maverick 88 and both of those are $199-$300 depending on what version you get and where you get it from.
     
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