Tragedy at USPSA match

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  • Bangswitch

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    This is an ND not an AD in my eyes. Using your holster to shoot yourself or others is preventable. The human had to error to make this happen. If a meteor fell on the hammer while holstered that would be an AD. That’s a freak accident. This is a mistake that beat the odds in a really bad way. It sucks to call it that, but we police our own.
     

    thperez1972

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    Respectfully, that's not a parallel. Your phone doesn't have the capacity to discharge projectiles designed to kill people at 1200fps.

    I have a case on my phone, I wear my seatbelt when I drive, I have insurance on my house, I have a big circuit breaker between the power pole and my toaster, I brush my teeth before bed, and I put on sunscreen when it's 100 degrees outside. Putting measures in place to protect against potential risks has nothing even remotely to do with getting complacent about safe gun handling.

    According to the article, the gun fired when it hit the ground. Unless you are suggesting the guy dropped it on the ground intentionally, then it either slipped from his hand or he let go of it after believing it was in a secure location. Complacency is a behavioral change due to an overconfidence that comes from repeated actions. An isolated incident is a mistake. Unless I missed something in the article, it appears the guy made a mistake. It was negligent but that’s not complacency. I would imagine if he were complacent, he would have been kicked off the range before this happened.

    Unfortunately, mistakes can happen. In this case, the gun happened to land in a way that caused the gun to fire and the RO happened to be in a spot in the path of the bullet.

    So unless I missed an article that described the guy as complacent, I must view this as a mistake. As such, acknowledging that mistakes can happen is why people put cases on their phones.


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    Jlong1691

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    According to the article, the gun fired when it hit the ground. Unless you are suggesting the guy dropped it on the ground intentionally, then it either slipped from his hand or he let go of it after believing it was in a secure location. Complacency is a behavioral change due to an overconfidence that comes from repeated actions. An isolated incident is a mistake. Unless I missed something in the article, it appears the guy made a mistake. It was negligent but that’s not complacency. I would imagine if he were complacent, he would have been kicked off the range before this happened.

    Unfortunately, mistakes can happen. In this case, the gun happened to land in a way that caused the gun to fire and the RO happened to be in a spot in the path of the bullet.

    So unless I missed an article that described the guy as complacent, I must view this as a mistake. As such, acknowledging that mistakes can happen is why people put cases on their phones.


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    I am making it my life's aspiration to be as perfect as 85% of the people on this forum who make no mistakes. EVER!!!
     

    dwr461

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    I’m not going to comment about on going discussion.

    I’m going to send a prayer for the loss and those affected by this terrible tragedy.

    Dave


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    Jack

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    According to the article, the gun fired when it hit the ground. Unless you are suggesting the guy dropped it on the ground intentionally, then it either slipped from his hand or he let go of it after believing it was in a secure location. Complacency is a behavioral change due to an overconfidence that comes from repeated actions. An isolated incident is a mistake. Unless I missed something in the article, it appears the guy made a mistake. It was negligent but that’s not complacency. I would imagine if he were complacent, he would have been kicked off the range before this happened.

    Unfortunately, mistakes can happen. In this case, the gun happened to land in a way that caused the gun to fire and the RO happened to be in a spot in the path of the bullet.

    So unless I missed an article that described the guy as complacent, I must view this as a mistake. As such, acknowledging that mistakes can happen is why people put cases on their phones.


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    Is there a way, aside from complacency, for a person to drop their handgun while holstering? Are you suggesting he had a stroke or something?

    Every single person I know who is even remotely proficient at gun handling knows that you holster slowly and carefully. It’s basically the 5th rule of gun safety.

    I have a protective case on my phone because I know that I’m prone to doing stupid **** with it, like putting it on top of a ladder while I’m working. It also contains sensitive electronics, which means salt water kills it. When you start putting your pistol up next to your face while talking to someone you can’t see when you’re walking down the street, this will be a reasonable point, until then, it’s not.
     
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    thperez1972

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    I am making it my life's aspiration to be as perfect as 85% of the people on this forum who make no mistakes. EVER!!!

    You replied to my post. If you are implying I don't make mistakes, your conclusion is not supported by my post.

    Is there a way, aside from complacency, for a person to drop their handgun while holstering? Are you suggesting he had a stroke or something?

    Every single person I know who is even remotely proficient at gun handling knows that you holster slowly and carefully. It’s basically the 5th rule of gun safety.

    Yes, there is a way. He made a mistake. I don't see it as complacency for the reasons explained above. Other than that, I agree with you. The guy made a preventable mistake.

    I have a protective case on my phone because I know that I’m prone to doing stupid **** with it, like putting it on top of a ladder while I’m working. It also contains sensitive electronics, which means salt water kills it. When you start putting your pistol up next to your face while talking to someone you can’t see when you’re walking down the street, this will be a reasonable point, until then, it’s not.

    You have a case because you know mistakes happen. That's what happened on the range. It was a negligent mistake.
     

    Jack

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    You have a case because you know mistakes happen. That's what happened on the range. It was a negligent mistake.

    Repeating the same thing over and over doesn’t make it more reasonable or applicable. A mistake is setting your alarm for 7 when it was supposed to be 6, not dropping your pistol because you didn’t make sure it was in the holster and shooting some guy in the face.

    This whole phone comparison is silly. People have covers on their phones because they treat phones differently than guns, because phones are not guns and guns are not phones.
     
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    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    Repeating the same thing over and over doesn’t make it more reasonable or applicable. A mistake is setting your alarm for 7 when it was supposed to be 6, not dropping your pistol because you didn’t make sure it was in the holster and shooting some guy in the face.

    This whole phone comparison is silly. People have covers on their phones because they treat phones differently than guns, because phones are not guns and guns are not phones.

    I realize dropping a phone does not have the potential to kill someone but people put cases on their phones because they know accidents can happen. Do you think I'm defending the guy? You you think I'm minimizing the results of his action because because I see it as an accident rather than complacency? What do you hope to gain by ensuring people use the word complacency when referring to this incident?
     

    thperez1972

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    I realize dropping a phone does not have the potential to kill someone but people put cases on their phones because they know accidents can happen. Do you think I'm defending the guy? You you think I'm minimizing the results of his action because because I see it as an accident rather than complacency? What do you hope to gain by ensuring people use the word complacency when referring to this incident?

    Do you wear an adult diaper because accidents happen?

    Why do you ask? Have you run out and need some? And how does that answer the questions above?
     

    Bangswitch

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    I realize dropping a phone does not have the potential to kill someone but people put cases on their phones because they know accidents can happen. Do you think I'm defending the guy? You you think I'm minimizing the results of his action because because I see it as an accident rather than complacency? What do you hope to gain by ensuring people use the word complacency when referring to this incident?

    Its an emotional response but I’m sure you know that. If they call it something bad sounding it somehow gives meaning. Something to point to and say, ‘see, see, don’t be that guy.’

    But see it was likely just a mistake we all make them they usually don’t count so much. There are some lessons for all of us to learn in this tragedy. Holstering a weapon can be deadly it only takes a really bad set of circumstances to align so take extra care holstering it. Firing pin blocks aren’t a bad idea. One day you may defy the odds and be in the wrong place at the wrong time and a mistake or freak accident end you life through no fault of your own. And not all mistakes are easily corrected.

    Now can we stop arguing weather or not this guy was a horrible gun guy and bad/dangerous competitor and figure out which is better blue, red, or green loctite.
     

    Jack

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    I’m asking because by your logic you should. I’m sure I’ve broken my phone less often than you’ve soiled yourself over the course of your lifetime and one is much more embarrassing than the other. I’m not trying to ensure anything, I’m pointing out that the phone case analogy is ridiculous. I thought that was clear.
     

    Jack

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    Its an emotional response but I’m sure you know that. If they call it something bad sounding it somehow gives meaning. Something to point to and say, ‘see, see, don’t be that guy.’

    But see it was likely just a mistake we all make them they usually don’t count so much. There are some lessons for all of us to learn in this tragedy. Holstering a weapon can be deadly it only takes a really bad set of circumstances to align so take extra care holstering it. Firing pin blocks aren’t a bad idea. One day you may defy the odds and be in the wrong place at the wrong time and a mistake or freak accident end you life through no fault of your own. And not all mistakes are easily corrected.

    Now can we stop arguing weather or not this guy was a horrible gun guy and bad/dangerous competitor and figure out which is better blue, red, or green loctite.

    It’s not an emotional response at all. I’m confused by a lot of the responses, this being another example. I’m confused as to why this is a lesson for anyone here. It’s something anyone who carries a firearm should’ve had engrained into them before they started carrying a firearm. *Make sure the gun is seated in the holster before you let go of it* is about as rudimentary as it gets. It’s on par with keep your finger off of the trigger and don’t point the gun at anything you aren’t willing to kill or destroy. I had the same reaction when I read about a round getting cooked off at a Buck Angel tactical response class and Sonny Puzikas’ shoot house run.
     
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    thperez1972

    ESSAYONS
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    It’s not an emotional response at all. I’m confused by a lot of the responses, this being another example. I’m confused as to why this is a lesson for anyone here. It’s something anyone who carries a firearm should’ve had engrained into them before they started carrying a firearm. *Make sure the gun is seated in the holster before you let go of it* is about as rudimentary as it gets. It’s on par with keep your finger off of the trigger and don’t point the gun at anything you aren’t willing to kill or destroy. I had the same reaction when I read about a round getting cooked off at a Buck Angel tactical response class and Sonny Puzikas’ shoot house run.

    Yes to all of that. He made a preventable mistake that had tragic results. But I don’t view a single mistake as a sign of complacency. You can’t seem to handle that for some reason. You seem to have some need for everyone to agree with you that it wasn’t just a mistake. Why?


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    Jack

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    Yes to all of that. He made a preventable mistake that had tragic results. But I don’t view a single mistake as a sign of complacency. You can’t seem to handle that for some reason. You seem to have some need for everyone to agree with you that it wasn’t just a mistake. Why?


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    I think you’re grasping for something that isn’t there. This likely stems from you making a really really poor analogy, being called on it, and not wanting to walk it back. It’s a forum for discussion, so I’m discussing the topic. If discussing a topic on a forum means I can’t handle it, I guess you got me, but it would take a pretty poor understanding of the meaning of words to get there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    By the very definition he was negligent.

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    thperez1972

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    I think you’re grasping for something that isn’t there. This likely stems from you making a really really poor analogy, being called on it, and not wanting to walk it back. It’s a forum for discussion, so I’m discussing the topic. If discussing a topic on a forum means I can’t handle it, I guess you got me, but it would take a pretty poor understanding of the meaning of words to get there.

    - - - Updated - - -



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    I’m not walking back the analogy because it fits. People make mistakes all the time. Not all mistakes are the result of complacency. Some are just mistakes. Your first question to me was how it could be anything other than complacency. You asked that question in a reply to a post whey I explained how it was something other than complacency. But if that was for the sale of discussion, let’s pick up where we left off.

    Do you think I'm defending the guy? You you think I'm minimizing the results of his action because because I see it as an accident rather than complacency? What do you hope to gain by ensuring people use the word complacency when referring to this incident?


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    Bangswitch

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    It’s not an emotional response at all. I’m confused by a lot of the responses, this being another example. I’m confused as to why this is a lesson for anyone here. It’s something anyone who carries a firearm should’ve had engrained into them before they started carrying a firearm. *Make sure the gun is seated in the holster before you let go of it* is about as rudimentary as it gets. It’s on par with keep your finger off of the trigger and don’t point the gun at anything you aren’t willing to kill or destroy. I had the same reaction when I read about a round getting cooked off at a Buck Angel tactical response class and Sonny Puzikas’ shoot house run.

    Or as rudimentary as pulling the stock of a rifle into you shoulder but relaxing the shoulder and squeezing The trigger through the recoil impulse. Those are rudimentary as well. Should we DQ and ban for life everyone who has missed their target?

    But what you are really saying is you’re too good with a gun to bother taking the time to review just how important fundament skills are and how easy it could be if you let your concentration lapse even for a micro second.
     
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    Jack

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    Or as rudimentary as pulling the stock of a rifle into you shoulder but relaxing the shoulder and squeezing The trigger through the recoil impulse. Those are rudimentary as well. Should we DQ and ban for life everyone who has missed their target?

    I’d say it’s circumstance dependent. If the target is incredibly close to the person, they have all the time in the world and as many tries as they want, provided they don’t drop the gun and they still miss, sure. By example, if the target is roughly the same distance from the shooter as their holster is while it’s on their belt, they can’t hit it given as much time as they like, and after failing they drop the gun and it shoots someone in the face they shouldn’t be on the range.

    You have all of the time in the world to holster, it’s based on gross motor skills, the target is rather large, and you have as many tries as you want provided you don’t do something really really unsafe. Not taking advantage of this is negligence.
     

    Bigchillin83

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    and you people talked about magdump trying to get his post count up lol
    :deadhorse: so whos of first?
     

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