Tragedy at USPSA match

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  • thperez1972

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    You have all of the time in the world to holster, it’s based on gross motor skills, the target is rather large, and you have as many tries as you want provided you don’t do something really really unsafe. Not taking advantage of this is negligence.

    I completely agree with you. And it the pistol has a problem passing the drop test as someone mentioned, it should not be allowed to be used in the future.


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    Jack

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    I’m not walking back the analogy because it fits. People make mistakes all the time. Not all mistakes are the result of complacency. Some are just mistakes. Your first question to me was how it could be anything other than complacency. You asked that question in a reply to a post whey I explained how it was something other than complacency. But if that was for the sale of discussion, let’s pick up where we left off.

    Do you think I'm defending the guy? You you think I'm minimizing the results of his action because because I see it as an accident rather than complacency? What do you hope to gain by ensuring people use the word complacency when referring to this incident?


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    You must’ve missed it the first time...

    I’m asking because by your logic you should. I’m sure I’ve broken my phone less often than you’ve soiled yourself over the course of your lifetime and one is much more embarrassing than the other. I’m not trying to ensure anything, I’m pointing out that the phone case analogy is ridiculous. I thought that was clear.

    ———

    I’ll add, if you don’t see why comparing a phone to a pistol is a bad comparison I really don’t know what to tell you. One is made of glass and sensitive electronics, doesn’t have a potential to kill someone(unless it’s an exploding Samsung phone). They’re both handled entirely differently and come with different issues.

    - - - Updated - - -

    and you people talked about magdump trying to get his post count up lol
    :deadhorse: so whos of first?

    I wasn’t here for that one, did I miss something?
     

    DBMJR1

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    Negligent, accidental, . . . I'd wager that this fellow feels horrible, and might never compete again.

    Now that I've settled that, . .

    Is WD-40 good for cleaning Browning Shotguns?
     

    Bangswitch

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    I’d say it’s circumstance dependent. If the target is incredibly close to the person, they have all the time in the world and as many tries as they want, provided they don’t drop the gun and they still miss, sure. By example, if the target is roughly the same distance from the shooter as their holster is while it’s on their belt, they can’t hit it given as much time as they like, and after failing they drop the gun and it shoots someone in the face they shouldn’t be on the range.

    You have all of the time in the world to holster, it’s based on gross motor skills, the target is rather large, and you have as many tries as you want provided you don’t do something really really unsafe. Not taking advantage of this is negligence.

    Im going to repeat this section of my last post because I think you missed it.

    But what you are really saying is you’re too good with a gun to bother taking the time to review just how important fundament skills are and how easy it could be if you let your concentration lapse even for a micro second.

    Instead you want to do the cool gun guy thing and eat your own. Because cool gun guys never error. I for one know I’m likely to commit an egregious error at some point so I will continue doing what I can to remind myself how important focus and fundamentals are.
     
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    thperez1972

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    You must’ve missed it the first time...

    I’m asking because by your logic you should. I’m sure I’ve broken my phone less often than you’ve soiled yourself over the course of your lifetime and one is much more embarrassing than the other. I’m not trying to ensure anything, I’m pointing out that the phone case analogy is ridiculous. I thought that was clear.

    I’ll add, if you don’t see why comparing a phone to a pistol is a bad comparison I really don’t know what to tell you. One is made of glass and sensitive electronics, doesn’t have a potential to kill someone(unless it’s an exploding Samsung phone). They’re both handled entirely differently and come with different issues.


    Oh, I didn't miss it. I was just giving you another opportunity to answer the questions without pointing out your error. You mistakenly believe I'm comparing a phone to a gun. That's a silly thing to do. I'm using the fact that people who put cases on phones are generally acknowledging that accidents can happen. Not everyone who puts a case on a phone is displaying complacency. A mistake or an accident or a single case of negligence is not the same thing as complacency.

    And because you seem (a bit too) interested in people soiling themselves, I'm sure almost everyone has broken a phone less often that almost everyone has soiled themselves over the course of their lifetime. Unless you were born potty trained, you probably soiled yourself on a daily basis for a good while.

    Now that those have been addressed, can we continue the discussion? You must have missed it the first and second time so I'll try to continue the discussion a third time. Do you think I'm defending the guy? You you think I'm minimizing the results of his action because because I see it as an accident rather than complacency? What do you hope to gain by ensuring people use the word complacency when referring to this incident?
     

    Jack

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    Im going to repeat this section of my last post because I think you missed it.

    But what you are really saying is you’re too good with a gun to bother taking the time to review just how important fundament skills are and how easy it could be if you let your concentration lapse even for a micro second.

    Instead you want to do the cool gun guy thing and eat your own. Because cool gun guys never error. I for one know I’m likely to commit an egregious error at some point so I will continue doing what I can to remind myself how important focus and fundamentals are.

    It’s quite the opposite. I’m saying that I know that I can screw up. I know that I’m not that good, because I have this knowledge, I take my time to make sure I’m being safe. As you’ve said, errors happen, we follow basic safety rules so that when an error happens it doesn’t result in someone getting shot in the face.
     

    Jack

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    Oh, I didn’t miss it....What do you hope to gain by ensuring people use the word complacency when referring to this incident?
    This is why this discussion is a waste of time.
     

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    machinedrummer

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    Is there a list of prohibited guns at matches due to safety issues such as this? Maybe there should be? It’s a horrible accident but when firearms and humans interact the deadly potential always exist. I’m sure the man didn’t show up looking to kill a RO. This may cause a change in weapons allowed to be used. More regulation....by the way I am not for more regulations.
     

    Bangswitch

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    It’s quite the opposite. I’m saying that I know that I can screw up. I know that I’m not that good, because I have this knowledge, I take my time to make sure I’m being safe. As you’ve said, errors happen, we follow basic safety rules so that when an error happens it doesn’t result in someone getting shot in the face.

    So it’s not that we disagree on the need for each and every one of us to focus on the incident and remind ourselves this could be you but for constant self doubt and extra precaution. It’s that you want to scourge a guy for being the example that simple mistakes can kill. Please never teach drivers ed. The little kiddies would be terrified to start the car.

    I’m not giving the guy a pass by any means but the cool guy pile-on is counter productive if you make the guy out to be the villain.
     

    Bangswitch

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    Is there a list of prohibited guns at matches due to safety issues such as this? Maybe there should be? It’s a horrible accident but when firearms and humans interact the deadly potential always exist. I’m sure the man didn’t show up looking to kill a RO. This may cause a change in weapons allowed to be used. More regulation....by the way I am not for more regulations.

    I always am cautious of the knee-jerk reaction, but I’m not saying this idea would necessarily be that. There are tons of great platforms to work with that are ‘drop safe’. But the odds of this happening are pretty low also. Without giving the incident much though it might appear like blame the equipment. Still firing pin blocks on handguns just feels like a seatbelt in a car except you add a layer of protection for everyone around by selecting a drop safe gun not just user.
     
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    thperez1972

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    This is why this discussion is a waste of time.

    Yep...you're not trying to ensure anything. You weren't trying to argue it was complacency and not just a mistake or an accident. Got it.

    Is there a way, aside from complacency, for a person to drop their handgun while holstering?

    Repeating the same thing over and over doesn’t make it more reasonable or applicable. A mistake is setting your alarm for 7 when it was supposed to be 6, not dropping your pistol because you didn’t make sure it was in the holster and shooting some guy in the face.

    What about the other questions? Do you think I'm trying to defend the guy? Do you think I'm trying to minimize the results?
     

    Jack

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    Yep...you're not trying to ensure anything. You weren't trying to argue it was complacency and not just a mistake or an accident. Got it.





    What about the other questions? Do you think I'm trying to defend the guy? Do you think I'm trying to minimize the results?

    No, I think that you simply don’t understand the words you’re using or you don’t understand how this would’ve happened. Just as you’re confusing a question and a statement. Me asking what you would call it if not complacency isn’t a statement or a demand for you to use a particular word, it’s a question.
     

    thperez1972

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    No, I think that you simply don’t understand the words you’re using or you don’t understand how this would’ve happened. Just as you’re confusing a question and a statement. Me asking what you would call it if not complacency isn’t a statement or a demand for you to use a particular word, it’s a question.

    No, I understand the circumstances regarding what happened.

    You asked a question in the reply to the answer to the question you just asked. To claim that question was legitimately looking for a response when you quoted the response would indicate you need to work on your reading comprehension. I will answer your question below.

    According to the article, the gun fired when it hit the ground. Unless you are suggesting the guy dropped it on the ground intentionally, then it either slipped from his hand or he let go of it after believing it was in a secure location. Complacency is a behavioral change due to an overconfidence that comes from repeated actions. An isolated incident is a mistake. Unless I missed something in the article, it appears the guy made a mistake. It was negligent but that’s not complacency. I would imagine if he were complacent, he would have been kicked off the range before this happened.

    Is there a way, aside from complacency, for a person to drop their handgun while holstering?

    According to the article, the gun fired when it hit the ground. Unless you are suggesting the guy dropped it on the ground intentionally, then it either slipped from his hand or he let go of it after believing it was in a secure location. Complacency is a behavioral change due to an overconfidence that comes from repeated actions. An isolated incident is a mistake. Unless I missed something in the article, it appears the guy made a mistake. It was negligent but that’s not complacency. I would imagine if he were complacent, he would have been kicked off the range before this happened.
     

    Jack

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    According to the article, the gun fired when it hit the ground. Unless you are suggesting the guy dropped it on the ground intentionally, then it either slipped from his hand or he let go of it after believing it was in a secure location. Complacency is a behavioral change due to an overconfidence that comes from repeated actions. An isolated incident is a mistake. Unless I missed something in the article, it appears the guy made a mistake. It was negligent but that’s not complacency. I would imagine if he were complacent, he would have been kicked off the range before this happened.

    So the option of *he wasn’t thinking at all, he moved his hand down and let go* isn’t even something you acknowledge as being a possibility?
     

    thperez1972

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    So the option of *he wasn’t thinking at all, he moved his hand down and let go* isn’t even something you acknowledge as being a possibility?

    That's probably not a possibility. People's brain are always thinking about something. They're never not thinking.
     
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