BATFE Requesting Forfeiture of Polymer 80 Kits.

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  • Bangswitch

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    So I’ll pose a generic question:
    Is it ok for the ATF to subpoena information on citizens that bought something online that was legal to buy? I’m not talking about for one person as in to collect evidence for a court case, but a big blanket search into private information to compile a list of people who purchased a legal product. Just because they got a subpoena, does that make it ok?
    Does anyone think there’s no way they could do this with anything else?

    Not a lawyer but my instincts say no. Not for items outside their mandate. Now things inside their mandate I would suspect they would need reason to believe something was illegal concerning the purchase. Maybe an item was being sold that was intended to skirt the law but the manufacturer wasn’t aware actually crossed the line. Or maybe the item does skirt the law perfectly and the Alphabet agency is in the wrong but being something that clearly falls under their per view I could see the investigation involving a door to door effort.

    Now don’t misrepresent my opinion as approving of what’s taking place but the legal maneuvering is probably squared away. But for that pesky 2A.
     

    Magdump

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    It’s not ironic. You shared a link to an opinion piece that was trying to explain a motive behind the changes on the form. I posted a link to an article that contained a link to the application for warrant. The fact they are from the same source is coincidental.


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    Coincidence and irony know each other pretty well I think
     

    thperez1972

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    There’s is also the logistics of compiling the insurmountable heap of data into one concise list for collection efforts.

    There are some logistical issues but those are easily overcome with database searches. Authorize.net is the company P80 uses for their credit cards. I can’t imagine it would be too tough to get a list of names and order numbers that correspond to the total of the BBS kit with shipping. Stamps.com would have an address for the names. Upon searching P80, they verify that a BBS kit was the item on that order.

    That’s with a narrow subpoena. They could have also asked for all the sales data and addresses from a specific time frame then gone to P80 to get the order number with kits. The main difference is who combed through the data.


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    Bangswitch

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    There are some logistical issues but those are easily overcome with database searches. Authorize.net is the company P80 uses for their credit cards. I can’t imagine it would be too tough to get a list of names and order numbers that correspond to the total of the BBS kit with shipping. Stamps.com would have an address for the names. Upon searching P80, they verify that a BBS kit was the item on that order.

    That’s with a narrow subpoena. They could have also asked for all the sales data and addresses from a specific time frame then gone to P80 to get the order number with kits. The main difference is who combed through the data.


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    No, no we agree. This data collection effort was minuscule by comparison to a ‘master list’ for gun confiscation. That’s the massive amount of data they won’t be marching through in any hurry.

    The data collection has always been my biggest argument against the government’s ability to collect 300-400M guns out there.
     
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    thperez1972

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    Do we?

    Btw, I just saw the last post in that closed thread. I had no idea the thread was closed when I edited my post. I didn’t even know we could do that. I thought once a thread was closed that was it, no further posts. I bet I’m not the only one who had no idea that was possible.

    Not knowing the thread was closed makes the edit look even worse.


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    thperez1972

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    So I’ll pose a generic question:
    Is it ok for the ATF to subpoena information on citizens that bought something online that was legal to buy? I’m not talking about for one person as in to collect evidence for a court case, but a big blanket search into private information to compile a list of people who purchased a legal product. Just because they got a subpoena, does that make it ok?
    Does anyone think there’s no way they could do this with anything else?
    Kinda hard to deny something when you watch it happening before your eyes is all I’m saying.

    The “problem” with what you are saying is the ATF is claiming it wasn’t legal to buy. So, in their mind, they weren’t getting information on a legal purchase. And by having a warrant and subpoenas, a judge somewhere reviewed their evidence and agreed with them.

    I personally don’t agree with them. If the ATF decided an 80% lower is not a firearm then it’s not a firearm. Including the parts needed to make a firearm at home, a legal activity for non-prohibited persons, does not alter the physical properties of the chunk of polymer.


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    thperez1972

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    It’s a coincidence that I popped on here today when you were posting things that might amuse me. It’s ironic that a guy who would rather the ATF keep their distance from his residence would call them to provoke them.

    Especially when that guy seems to believe the ATF has so much information on him already.


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    Magdump

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    Look, I know you guys don’t think I’m gonna call the ATF and grab my crotch at them and tell them here’s the ghost gun, but I appreciate all the attention you’re giving me over that. Reason and splain and argue all you like, but I don’t think there’s any argument left in favor of the ATF, which is what all this fanfare looks like to me.
     

    Magdump

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    If the ATF has been compiling data and making a list of gun owners by any means that are not considered legal, I don’t think they’d wanna tip their hand by popping up with a list of Poly 80 owners without having gone through proper legal channels such as subpoenas. It’s been mentioned a time or two that the big buy back or whatever in New Zealand was a big fail and it’s been talked about a fair bit in the media that when (yes, they said when) the time comes that American gun owners are ordered to turn in certain weapons that it’ll likely be the same. I don’t think the Feds will just ignore the outcome here if/when that day comes. So, I’m just asking people to think outside the box a little bit. Don’t expect your government to respect any laws or rights or the Constitution of the United States. There’s daily erosion of laws and rights that protect us from the government and it’s pretty obvious that they’ve long wanted to disarm the people of this country. And once they accomplish that, well, we won’t have to worry about the Constitution at all. Or anything even remotely resembling freedom.
    I don’t know why it bothers some to speculate or talk about any of it but apparently it does.
     

    Bangswitch

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    Look, I know you guys don’t think I’m gonna call the ATF and grab my crotch at them and tell them here’s the ghost gun, but I appreciate all the attention you’re giving me over that. Reason and splain and argue all you like, but I don’t think there’s any argument left in favor of the ATF, which is what all this fanfare looks like to me.

    The above underlined sentence we are in 100% agreement on. I’m not a fan A and T should be absorbed by the FDA and F has no business being regulated by the Federal Government.
     

    Bangswitch

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    If the ATF has been compiling data and making a list of gun owners by any means that are not considered legal, I don’t think they’d wanna tip their hand by popping up with a list of Poly 80 owners without having gone through proper legal channels such as subpoenas. It’s been mentioned a time or two that the big buy back or whatever in New Zealand was a big fail and it’s been talked about a fair bit in the media that when (yes, they said when) the time comes that American gun owners are ordered to turn in certain weapons that it’ll likely be the same. I don’t think the Feds will just ignore the outcome here if/when that day comes. So, I’m just asking people to think outside the box a little bit. Don’t expect your government to respect any laws or rights or the Constitution of the United States. There’s daily erosion of laws and rights that protect us from the government and it’s pretty obvious that they’ve long wanted to disarm the people of this country. And once they accomplish that, well, we won’t have to worry about the Constitution at all. Or anything even remotely resembling freedom.
    I don’t know why it bothers some to speculate or talk about any of it but apparently it does.

    I don’t object to idle speculation in general but the dogma regularly uttered by a contingent in the gun community concerning primary market gun sales is counter productive to bringing new gun owners into the fold. I believe it’s also utilized by a smaller contingent of unscrupulous people scalping non-prohibited persons in the secondary market.

    It’s an unnecessary discussion if you understand who is responsible for the 4473’s once properly filled out and the NICS is rubber stamped. You can make the arguments that there is a conspiracy to collect the NICS data and conceal it from the American people but it would require a fairly elaborate coverup. It’s not faith in the bureaucrats who work for the NICS but my lack of faith. I have dealt with many many bureaucrats in my life I don’t believe they could hold their water much less cover up a conspiracy to collect NICS data. So that leaves you with a conspiracy between either the FFL of the credit card companies and I won’t bother to debunk that because their are all kinds of privacy laws that would require violating nevermind it would require people to act against their best interests.
     

    thperez1972

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    Haha! Look even worse? It’s bad to edit a post?
    That’s funny. I don’t understand any of it but it makes me laugh so I guess it’s good.

    It's not bad to edit a post in and of itself. But if you didn't realize the thread was closed, you would have thought you had two options. One option was to post your "I'm going to walk away" in a new post after my last reply. The other option was to edit your post after my reply to make it look like my reply was to your post about walking away. So by choosing the latter when you believed the former was an option, it appears you were trying to create the impression that the big mean man just had to keep going after you walked away.
     

    thperez1972

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    I don’t object to idle speculation in general but the dogma regularly uttered by a contingent in the gun community concerning primary market gun sales is counter productive to bringing new gun owners into the fold. I believe it’s also utilized by a smaller contingent of unscrupulous people scalping non-prohibited persons in the secondary market.

    It’s an unnecessary discussion if you understand who is responsible for the 4473’s once properly filled out and the NICS is rubber stamped. You can make the arguments that there is a conspiracy to collect the NICS data and conceal it from the American people but it would require a fairly elaborate coverup. It’s not faith in the bureaucrats who work for the NICS but my lack of faith. I have dealt with many many bureaucrats in my life I don’t believe they could hold their water much less cover up a conspiracy to collect NICS data. So that leaves you with a conspiracy between either the FFL of the credit card companies and I won’t bother to debunk that because their are all kinds of privacy laws that would require violating nevermind it would require people to act against their best interests.

    And as I've said before, the more people who know about a secret, the shorter amount of time that the information will remain a secret. Unless the managers of the nefarious activity are able to vet everyone involved so they are, and will remain, 100% committed to the project, including having the ability to move people in and out of any involved position without drawing scrutiny, the information about the actions will end up in the hands of someone who disagrees with the actions. At that point, it's only a matter of time before a whistleblower somes forward. Snowden is a great example of that. Sure, the programs may go undetected for a little bit but they will eventually be made public.
     

    Gator 45/70

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    I've heard these are in the ABC boys scopeof future ban items?
    Dont know how true it is?
    Magdump, Get ready to comply dude
     

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    Bangswitch

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    And as I've said before, the more people who know about a secret, the shorter amount of time that the information will remain a secret. Unless the managers of the nefarious activity are able to vet everyone involved so they are, and will remain, 100% committed to the project, including having the ability to move people in and out of any involved position without drawing scrutiny, the information about the actions will end up in the hands of someone who disagrees with the actions. At that point, it's only a matter of time before a whistleblower somes forward. Snowden is a great example of that. Sure, the programs may go undetected for a little bit but they will eventually be made public.

    And this is why I struggle to believe most conspiracy theories. You rely on everyone involved sharing the same values concerning the subject and then you have to rely on them not shooting their mouths off while out with there buddies, pillow talk, or getting pissed off and spilling the beans for spite.
     

    Magdump

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    It's not bad to edit a post in and of itself. But if you didn't realize the thread was closed, you would have thought you had two options. One option was to post your "I'm going to walk away" in a new post after my last reply. The other option was to edit your post after my reply to make it look like my reply was to your post about walking away. So by choosing the latter when you believed the former was an option, it appears you were trying to create the impression that the big mean man just had to keep going after you walked away.
    I’m not surprised that you think like that Perez, but posting on here doesn’t have to be all about some battle or struggle for me. I just don’t think like that. There is no big bad man here. And apparently you have the power to undo what others have edited... so spare me the rhetoric.
     

    Bigchillin83

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    i thought one of the selling points of the polymer 80 was that the atf/fed gov. didnt know you had one.. was like a ghost receiver... hmm guess thats busted lol... you dont think that polymer 80 would destroy all sales records and personal info before letting the atf/gov get it huh... lol :eek3:
     

    Gator 45/70

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    i thought one of the selling points of the polymer 80 was that the atf/fed gov. didnt know you had one.. was like a ghost receiver... hmm guess thats busted lol... you dont think that polymer 80 would destroy all sales records and personal info before letting the atf/gov get it huh... lol :eek3:

    That's one big reason.Goobers want's to do away with cash transactions among other things,It's to hard to track cash,Now that debit card is a piece of cake.
     
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