LEO input please.....

I read an interesting thread on OCDO and thought it needed more(some) LEO input. All the posts I read were from non-LEO, I'd like to hear the other side.

It all boils down to a particular situation that happened in Covington between a citizen and two STPSO deputies. I am not looking for justification of either party's actions so much as how do you think this would play out in your town, and what would you, in the same senario, have done differently, if anything. And if possible explain the statutes that allows for the deputies actions ( I understand the citizen's actions ), and how a citizen should react to a similar situation.


The thread;

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?78473-First-LEO-encounter...-Confronted-at-gunpoint

ahh, the good ole OCDO "SUE!!!" as soon as something happens. I love how they put emphasis on "gangster style"... If for whatever reason he only had one hand, it is natural for a lot of people to cant the weapon slightly, I do it, lots of shooters do it. Should he be holding a weapon on a threat with one hand? probably not but that is a training issue and not grounds for a lawsuit.

Now the ole "a holster is concealing it" thing is retarded, is the gun supposed to freaking hover or something?

The IA Captain's response was good, if you see someone with a weapon you can make sure that they are legally able to possess that weapon I don't think anyone wants violent felons, etc. walking around with impunity as long as they OC.

Yes people have the legal right to carry open in the state of Louisiana.As a cop I have not only the legal right but an obligation to make sure your not about to pull it out and start blasting people in the store.And yes breaking leather and pointing my gun at that person would be the prudent thing to do.My only problem with how the police reacted was that I didn't see anywhere in his story where they checked for warrants or a criminal history on him.I dam sure would have.

It is not the norm for anyone to walk around openly carrying a pistol in towns/cities these days.I'm 44 years old and the last time I saw it was when I was a young child growing up in a small town where everyone knew everybody.There was one very old fella who carried an ancient six gun on his hip and no one ever said anything about it,mainly because they knew him and knew he wasn't about to rob the place or start shooting everyone.

People want to carry a gun openly,fine,but be ready for incidents exactly like this one.

Oh and yes the holster concealing it thing is lame.

All I'm going to say is you really have to take what those guys say over there with a grain of salt.

Also consider the age of the OP.



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On the deputy drawing his weapon: I've had a similar discussion with a nervous/cautious supervisor about "display of force" and public perception. Nobody with half a lick of sense should knowingly enter into a potentialy deadly conflict on even ground. If your holstered, I am going to draw before you. If you have a pistol, I'm going to have a rifle, if you have a rifle, I am going to have at least one buddy with his rifle, preferably 20 buddies and a SEAL team.

My personal survival policy, which is backed up by the agency, is to be able to meet a potential threat and respond at least one level higher if possible.

To the unknowing public, they see "OMG That jackbooted thug just pulled his gun on that kid and his gun was holstered!" What do they expect? Us to face off, 20 paces at noon TV Old West style?

Modern violent conflict is fast and dirty, and fortune favors he who cheats best.

Cops can't see my guns.

spanky said:

Cops can't see my guns.

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Wait, you have guns?????




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Bayoupiper said:

Wait, you have guns?????




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I should have specified.

I wear long sleeves so I don't have to deal with cops who don't know the law about open carrying my guns.

meh... where's nolacop on this one??

rebelray84 said:

Oh and yes the holster concealing it thing is lame.

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Isn't there something in our CHP regs to the effect that, if a holster can be seen, it is assumed to hold a weapon?

TomTerrific said:

Isn't there something in our CHP regs to the effect that, if a holster can be seen, it is assumed to hold a weapon?

Click to expand...

There is case law (I don't remember the case but I'm sure someone will chime in) where it was ruled that there has to be intent to conceal.

rebelray84 said:

Yes people have the legal right to carry open in the state of Louisiana A right you are sworn to protect, I might add..As a cop I have not only the legal right but an obligation to make sure your not about to pull it out and start blasting people in the store. I agree wholeheartedly. I would also go as far as to say those of us who carry for our own safety has the same responsibility to ourselves and those around us. Although our reaction to said situation would be more of a "observe and report" response unless or until an immediate threat is realized.And yes breaking leather and pointing my gun at that person would be the prudent thing to do.My only problem with how the police reacted was that I didn't see anywhere in his story where they checked for warrants or a criminal history on him.I dam sure would have. I would have run him and the weapon, and if both were clean, and there were no signs of intent to commit a criminal act, I would hand his weapon back to him and wish him a merry evening (as I watched his every move)

It is not the norm for anyone to walk around openly carrying a pistol in towns/cities these days. It has been illegal in your city for quite some time now. Have ya'll fixed that yet?I'm 44 years old and the last time I saw it was when I was a young child growing up in a small town where everyone knew everybody.There was one very old fella who carried an ancient six gun on his hip and no one ever said anything about it,mainly because they knew him and knew he wasn't about to rob the place or start shooting everyone.

I've seen others OC on the northshore and I do on a regular occasion. I have OC'd around SPD, STPSO, and LSP without an incident, but I believe that is due to my appearance. I know it's tough on those in the 18-20 age bracket to be able to protect themselves without the possibility of CC, and the best advise is to not look like a thug.

People want to carry a gun openly,fine,but be ready for incidents exactly like this one. Yup!

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Just my .02.

spanky said:

I should have specified.

I wear long sleeves so I don't have to deal with cops who don't know the law about open carrying my guns.

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Typing up BOLO as we speak.


What's your eye color?





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Muzzle flash orange.

spanky said:

Muzzle flash orange.

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With poker dots hahahahahaha!

Playing the devil's advocate here...I walk into a place, and a cop draws down on me...and by the way, what makes you think you can beat me? Because you're a cop and I'm a civilian schmuk? That is frightfully assuming of you. If your service handgun has not cleared it's holster yet, I can trump you and that clunk-o-matic POS you're packing. All due to my Louisiana Hurricane Draw Revo Rig inspired by the aftermath of hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005...but I digress.

I know I haven't committed any crime, so you don't have probable cause for an arrest. You can't even articulate a reasonable suspicion to stop me. I know this true anywhere I go, because I toe the line, walk the straight and narrow, etc. Consequently, I don't have to waste time computing the validity of what's going down with the cops. There is none.

You are just some guy in a uniform pulling a gun on me without casuse reason. The uniform doesn't make it justified. It's reasonable to assume that by your actions, I'm getting into the grave danger zone and will soon have fear for my life, etc., etc., etc.

SCOTUS has already been there, done this one:

...where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no such right. What might be murder in the first 538*538 case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offence had been committed.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=13577773471272070940&q=john+bad+elk&hl=en&as_sdt=8000002

There has been some weakening of the Bad Elk finding in subsequent cases.

"But the right to resist arrest does not extend to killing the officer, though it may reduce a homicide from murder to manslaughter."
- in United States v. Willis, 1977

However,

In Rousseau, a 1952 case, we recited the common law rule prevalent in most jurisdictions at the time: "It is the law that a person illegally arrested by an officer may resist that arrest, even to the extent of the taking of life if his own life or any great bodily harm is threatened." Rousseau, 40 Wash.2d at 94, 241 P.2d 447 (citing John Bad Elk v. United States, 177 U.S. 529, 20 S.Ct. 729, 44 L.Ed. 874 (1900), and State v. Gum, 68 W.Va. 105, 69 S.E. 463 (1910)).

Of course, most of us, cops and non-cops, are never going to the brink like the incident cited by the OP. But I find it bothersome the bravado posted by topgunz1, who appears to be and LEO. Two points in particular:

If your holstered, I am going to draw before you.

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See the first paragraph.

My personal survival policy, which is backed up by the agency, is to be able to meet a potential threat and respond at least one level higher if possible.

Click to expand...

My obligation to return home to my loved ones is just as pressing if not more so, and in a incident like the OP cited, I have the law on my side, and you do not. Before you attempt to pull a gun on me in a public place, see the first paragraph herein and read it several times over.

Again, just advocating for the devil here. But, G.D., doesn't it get the hackles up on the cops...

And WTF is nolacop, soused on Bourbon Street??? This is just his kinda ticket to ride...

Spanky has the answer:

Cops can't see my guns.

Click to expand...

posse comatosis said:

Playing the devil's advocate here...I walk into a place, and a cop draws down on me...and by the way, what makes you think you can beat me? Because you're a cop and I'm a civilian schmuk? That is frightfully assuming of you. If your service handgun has not cleared it's holster yet, I can trump you and that clunk-o-matic POS you're packing. All due to my Louisiana Hurricane Draw Revo Rig inspired by the aftermath of hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005...but I digress.

I know I haven't committed any crime, so you don't have probable cause for an arrest. You can't even articulate a reasonable suspicion to stop me. I know this true anywhere I go, because I toe the line, walk the straight and narrow, etc. Consequently, I don't have to waste time computing the validity of what's going down with the cops. There is none.

You are just some guy in a uniform pulling a gun on me without casuse reason. The uniform doesn't make it justified. It's reasonable to assume that by your actions, I'm getting into the grave danger zone and will soon have fear for my life, etc., etc., etc.

SCOTUS has already been there, done this one:

...where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no such right. What might be murder in the first 538*538 case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offence had been committed.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=13577773471272070940&q=john+bad+elk&hl=en&as_sdt=8000002

There has been some weakening of the Bad Elk finding in subsequent cases.

"But the right to resist arrest does not extend to killing the officer, though it may reduce a homicide from murder to manslaughter."
- in United States v. Willis, 1977

However,

In Rousseau, a 1952 case, we recited the common law rule prevalent in most jurisdictions at the time: "It is the law that a person illegally arrested by an officer may resist that arrest, even to the extent of the taking of life if his own life or any great bodily harm is threatened." Rousseau, 40 Wash.2d at 94, 241 P.2d 447 (citing John Bad Elk v. United States, 177 U.S. 529, 20 S.Ct. 729, 44 L.Ed. 874 (1900), and State v. Gum, 68 W.Va. 105, 69 S.E. 463 (1910)).

Of course, most of us, cops and non-cops, are never going to the brink like the incident cited by the OP. But I find it bothersome the bravado posted by topgunz1, who appears to be and LEO. Two points in particular:

See the first paragraph.

My obligation to return home to my loved ones is just as pressing if not more so, and in a incident like the OP cited, I have the law on my side, and you do not. Before you attempt to pull a gun on me in a public place, see the first paragraph herein and read it several times over.

Again, just advocating for the devil here. But, G.D., doesn't it get the hackles up on the cops...

And WTF is nolacop, soused on Bourbon Street??? This is just his kinda ticket to ride...

Spanky has the answer:

Click to expand...

You sure make a lot of boasts.........




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Ok, I am not going to make the boasts that posse did...(for all I know, there is no better marksman and close quarters combantant than posse.....or the guy has problems locating the trigger on a pistol for all I know...)

BUT, if I am drawn on, and I have had cops draw on me twice before (but both of those times where in traffic stops so a differant situation) BUT, if I am drawn on, and knowing full well that I have not committed any crime and that they have no probable cause or reasonable suspicion, then yes, I would feel that my life is in danger, and that the use of lethal force in self defense may be necessary.

God forbid that anything ever gets to that point.

Do not get me wrong, I do not want to take another man's life. But in the last defense of my own, or of the live's of those important to me, I will if need be, and the ability is present. In this situation, I would do my best to talk the officer down, not going on the defensive attitude until his firearm is holstered. (i.e. put my hands over my head, comply with his orders, whatever.....then after his gun is holstered, call him a friggin moron...)

I disagree with the attitude displayed by some of you here that drawing down on someone exercising their right to OC is perfectly acceptable. That belief is in and of itself appalling, that someone who is supposed to be enforcing the law will put someone's life in danger for following the law, even if it is a law that does not put anyone in harm's way that the officer does not like.

Life is not like Burger King, it is not everything your way, deal with it. Yes, it means that sometimes you have to possibly put your life a bit more at risk to avoid stepping on the freedoms of others, but that is part of your job description.

You want to bitch about the safety aspect of OC as far as how it makes your job oh so much harder? Fine, bitch about it. But there is no call to go drawing weapons on people who are not breaking a law. In fact, you are doing more harm than good in so many ways.

Do you think that that person is going to love cops after an experience like that? Certainly not!
Which one of you two is escalating the situation into a potentially deadly one? Sorry, but just because you have on a uniform does not make you innocent of stupidity.

That is all for now.

I am apparantly very glad that there are a few officers that populate this board that I am glad I have not had the opportunity to run into while in a location where it is legal for me to OC.

Jimmy Dean said:

Ok, I am not going to make the boasts that posse did...(for all I know, there is no better marksman and close quarters combantant than posse.....or the guy has problems locating the trigger on a pistol for all I know...)

BUT, if I am drawn on, and I have had cops draw on me twice before (but both of those times where in traffic stops so a differant situation) BUT, if I am drawn on, and knowing full well that I have not committed any crime and that they have no probable cause or reasonable suspicion, then yes, I would feel that my life is in danger, and that the use of lethal force in self defense may be necessary.

God forbid that anything ever gets to that point.

Do not get me wrong, I do not want to take another man's life. But in the last defense of my own, or of the live's of those important to me, I will if need be, and the ability is present. In this situation, I would do my best to talk the officer down, not going on the defensive attitude until his firearm is holstered. (i.e. put my hands over my head, comply with his orders, whatever.....then after his gun is holstered, call him a friggin moron...)

I disagree with the attitude displayed by some of you here that drawing down on someone exercising their right to OC is perfectly acceptable. That belief is in and of itself appalling, that someone who is supposed to be enforcing the law will put someone's life in danger for following the law, even if it is a law that does not put anyone in harm's way that the officer does not like.

Life is not like Burger King, it is not everything your way, deal with it. Yes, it means that sometimes you have to possibly put your life a bit more at risk to avoid stepping on the freedoms of others, but that is part of your job description.

You want to bitch about the safety aspect of OC as far as how it makes your job oh so much harder? Fine, bitch about it. But there is no call to go drawing weapons on people who are not breaking a law. In fact, you are doing more harm than good in so many ways.

Do you think that that person is going to love cops after an experience like that? Certainly not!
Which one of you two is escalating the situation into a potentially deadly one? Sorry, but just because you have on a uniform does not make you innocent of stupidity.

That is all for now.

I am apparantly very glad that there are a few officers that populate this board that I am glad I have not had the opportunity to run into while in a location where it is legal for me to OC.

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And if we don't and that average looking joe who just happens to have a grudge against that particular establishment and has decided to go in there and waste everyone the cry will be WHY DIDN'T THAT DAM COP DO SOMETHING?HE SAW THE GUY HAD A GUN AND DIDN'T DO A DAM THING!

Seems we're always damned if we do and damned if we don't.


As for this

"BUT, if I am drawn on, and I have had cops draw on me twice before (but both of those times where in traffic stops so a differant situation) BUT, if I am drawn on, and knowing full well that I have not committed any crime and that they have no probable cause or reasonable suspicion, then yes, I would feel that my life is in danger, and that the use of lethal force in self defense may be necessary"

Dude are you serious?You believe that?You actually believe that you would be in a justifiable self defense situation because a police officer has drawn a gun on you and you "know full well" you have done nothing wrong?So it would be ok to draw your weapon and shoot that officer down?Really?Well you just go right ahead and test that theory.I'll bet everything I got one of two things will happen-you'll be dead or do jail time.

Just like you buddy,we got families we would like to go home to and we'll do what we got to do.