9MM NATO vs 9MM Luger

What's the difference? I am under the impression that there is a slight difference in the size of the cartridge. The 9MM NATO seems to be cheaper.

There is no difference in size. 9mm NATO is a hotter load (Higher SAAMI pressure) and some pistols can suffer damage when fed a steady diet of 9mm NATO, if they were not designed for those pressures. Think of it like a .38 special vs. 38 special +p or +p+ round.

Easy 9mm Luger is usually has a bullet weight of 115 Grain while NATO uses 124 Grain also NATO rounds are loaded to a higher pressure.

9mm Luger is usually loaded to SAAMI standards of 35,000 PSI
9mm NATO is usually loaded to 36,500PSI which would be considered a +P load according to SAAMI standards

Not really an issue on newer model service pistols (Glocks, HK, Sig, XD, etc etc etc), I would probably not use it on older model pistols though.

What about

What about the 9mm Magnum ammo?

9mm Largo

9mm Largo: 9mm Largo was initially adopted by the Spanish Army in 1905 along with the Bergmann "Mars" Model 1903 pistol, which fired the 9mm Bergmann cartridge of 1898. This cartridge was renamed "9mm Largo," which is Spanish for "long." 9mm Largo was used extensively by the Spanish armed forces until Spain joined NATO. As such, the 9mm Largo cartridge evolved over time. 9mm Largo is often described as identical to 9mm Bergmann-Bayard, but this is misleading. The differences will be fully explained on the entry on the Bergmann cartridges.

9mm Largo remained the standard Spanish service pistol cartridge for approximately seventy years, and a number of pistols have been chambered in this cartridge. In 1913, Spain adopted the Campo Giro Model 1913. This was a blowback design, as was the Astra Model 1921 (known commercially as the Astra 400), which replaced it in 1921. After the Spanish Civil War, Spain retained the 9mm Largo cartridge, but the military switched over to the Star Model A, followed by the Star M, and Star Super (aka Super B). These are locked-breech pistols that resemble the Colt M-1911A1 externally, but they have little internal similarities. Since the later Star pistols could withstand much more powerful loadings, later 9mm Largo ammunition is often much higher in velocity and pressure.

Llama also manufactured 9mm Largo pistols. The military and police of several Central and South American nations issued Astra, Star, and Llama pistols in 9x23mm Largo at one time or another. Some nations in South America still use 9mm Largo as a police cartridge, and ammunition is available in Europe and the Americas. Despite its considerable popularity, 9mm Largo arms have been gradually replaced by 9mm Parabellum handguns and submachine guns since the late 1970s.

Military 9mm Largo loads generally have a nominal velocity of 1,100 fps with a 125gr bullet. The original bullet diameter was .354, and the earliest loads with this bullet diameter appear to have been slightly weaker. By 1913, 9mm Largo loads had a bullet diameter of .355, or the same as 9x17mm, 9x19mm, 9x21mm, and the other 9x23mm cartridges. After WWII, 9mm Largo loads often pushed a 125gr bullet as fast as 1,200 fps, which raises pressures past the 35,000 psi mark.

Alternate names: 9mm Largo, 9x23mm Largo, and 9mm/38

2) 9mm Bergmann and
3) 9mm Bergmann-Bayard

Strictly speaking, these may not be two different cartridges, but a strong argument can be made for considering them as such. This cartridge began life in 1898. It was one of several cartridges developed by Theodor Bergmann for his Bergmann "Mars" Model 1903 pistol, which was available in several chamberings. A large, ungainly design, the "Mars" models were among the first semi-automatic pistols. The 9mm Bergmann cartridge of 1898 appears to have been dimensionally identical to 9mm Largo. No doubt, it was loaded similarly to the earliest versions of the Spanish cartridge. Information on the 1898 cartridge is limited, but it appears to have the honors of introducing the relatively heavy 124-125gr bullet now ubiquitous in 9mm Parabellum military loadings.

The later version, 9mm Bergmann-Bayard (also known as the 9mm Bayard Long, 9x23mm Bergmann-Bayard, and 9x23mm M10) is slightly larger. The Bergmann "Mars" pistol was not a great commercial success, and Bergmann sold the rights in 1907 to the Belgian firm of Pieper. Developed in 1908 as the 9mm Bayard Long, the cartridge is an updated version made possible by Bayard's improvements to the basic Bergmann design. The Model 1910 Bergmann-Bayard is the culmination of this work; Bayard strengthened the locking system developed by Bergmann, which allowed a slightly more powerful loading.

Denmark adopted the Model 1910 Bergmann-Bayard pistol and cartridge in 1911, and Danish firms began producing the pistol in 1922. Apparently, no other model was ever chambered in this caliber. No US manufacturer has ever offered factory ammunition. In fact, the Model 1910 Bergmann-Bayard pistol itself is quite rare in the US. This was a locked-breech design with many external resemblances to the Mauser C/96.

Dimensionally, 9mm Bergmann-Bayard is virtually identical to 9mm Largo, but it is slightly bigger all over. For example, 9mm Largo cases are 22.99mm long, while 9mm Bergman-Bayard cases are 23.11mm long. The overall length of the Bergmann-Bayard cartridges are always a minimum of 0.5mm (.02) longer. Bullet and bore diameters in 9mm Largo are typically .354-.355. In 9mm Bergmann-Bayard, bullet and bore diameters can be as large as 9.06mm (.357).

9mm Bergmann-Bayard has a nominal velocity of 1,100 fps with a 125gr bullet. Typical bullet diameter was .355, which is the same as 9x17mm, 9x19mm, 9x21mm, and the other 9x23mm cartridges. The change from .354" to .355" bullets in 9mm Largo appears to have occurred roughly at the same time that 9mm Bergmann-Bayard was introduced.



ANYTHING else???????????

9mm Bergmann-Bayard has a nominal velocity of 1,100 fps with a 125gr bullet. Typical bullet diameter was .355, which is the same as 9x17mm, 9x19mm, 9x21mm, and the other 9x23mm cartridges. The change from .354" to .355" bullets in 9mm Largo appears to have occurred roughly at the same time that 9mm Bergmann-Bayard was introduced.



ANYTHING else??????????? [/QUOTE]

Yes Sir Pablo

You want to buy my Star Supero Model A in 9mm largo? A true collectors piece and I got plenty ammo! So if your intrested DIG DEEP money bags for this one!

9mm Winchester Magnum is a different cartridge altogether being 9x29mm and loaded at close to 9x23 Winchester, NOT Largo specifications.



There are VERY few guns chambered in 9mm WinMag and these are the LAR Grizzly (VERY Rare), Wildey (Very Rare) and the AMT AutoMag III (rare but most common of those that exist).

See http://herohog.com/Guns/9mmWinMag for info and loading data.

Bad boys in Both 9's

Here is a picture of 9mm largo and 9mm luger!
The Largo is on the left!
Also a picture of two bad boys that is used to launche the ammo!
A Star Model Supero A on left in 9mm largo and Norinco Model 213A in 9mm luger!

[/sarcasm] So wait you're saying the 357 Sig isn't really the first cartridge to hit 1200 fps with a 125 grain bullet? [sarcasm/]

Dave