Call from ATF to check some of my guns

thperez1972 · Jul 6, 2019

MOTOR51 said:
Most people cooperate and have the same results. I’m sure a couple make it hard due to their rights but most that dont cooperate turn out to be criminal. Doesn’t matter if it’s a piece of gum or a trunk full of dope and guns.

Cooperation works both ways. If the ATF calls and the guy isn't a person of interest, they should explain why they want to talk to the guy. If the ATF is evasive or too general as to what they want to talk about, it's reasonable to believe they are looking at the guy as a potential criminal based on the information they have and want to throw some surprise questions at him.

Bangswitch · Jul 6, 2019

MOTOR51 said:
Most people cooperate and have the same results. I’m sure a couple make it hard due to their rights but most that dont cooperate turn out to be criminal. Doesn’t matter if it’s a piece of gum or a trunk full of dope and guns.

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I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m generally cooperative but as the saying goes ‘what I don’t know could hurt me.’

MOTOR51 · Jul 6, 2019

Bangswitch said:
I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m generally cooperative but as the saying goes ‘what I don’t know could hurt me.’

Don’t be sorry, I said “most”. Only you know what category you fall into.

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Bangswitch · Jul 6, 2019

MOTOR51 said:
Don’t be sorry, I said *most*. Only you know what category you fall into.

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Fair enough.

Core · Jul 10, 2019

Call ATF and ask if it's legit?

chrisdcd · Jul 10, 2019

I'm an FFL and an SOT. When they come, they are not calling to ask you. They are gonna show up if that's what they want to do. They may or may not give you a heads up, but if your doing something sketchy, they ain't asking.

chrisdcd · Jul 10, 2019

To be clear, people have been convicted of selling firearms unlicensed with as little as two transactions. Now, if your just buying, selling, and making some trades, your not gonna get screwed. I did it for years before I got my license. But, if you put stupid **** on the interned and are advertising firearms for sale without a license, and then sell to sketchy people, which is what a lot of people do, then your gonna end up finding yourself in a bind at some point. And you should in my opinion.

chrisdcd · Jul 10, 2019

thperez1972 said:
When a firearm is bought, the check is done and an approval code sent before the firearms are even listed on the form. That form is maintained in the store and, unless the store goes out of business, kept at the store. Is there a number of firearms bought at one time above which the purchase is to be reported to the feds? I didn't think there was. And if there wasn't what could have lead to the feds knowing about the number of firearms purchased?

If an individual purchases more than one handgun or lower receiver at a time, there is a form we will out and must be turned in to the ATF. So yes, it is tracked and reported.

Welldoya · Jul 10, 2019

First off, I would call the ATF office and verify that it was indeed an agent that called you.
Too many scams to just assume it’s legit.
I would agree to meet him at his office with my guns in a generic-looking case.
Unless you have unlimited funds, I would not involve a lawyer. They are very good at stretching out their time at several hundred $ per hour.
Something sounds odd about this case.
I’m thinking they got a tip about a particular gun or there’s a serial number mix-up or something.
People buy guns, don’t like them and sell them all the time. I think it would take more than that to cause an agent to contact you.
But then, my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

thperez1972 · Jul 10, 2019

chrisdcd said:
If an individual purchases more than one handgun or lower receiver at a time, there is a form we will out and must be turned in to the ATF. So yes, it is tracked and reported.

Thanks. I saw that on page 4.

Jadams74 · Jul 10, 2019

My advice is to call the ATF first and make sure that it's actually them making this request. If it is, I would get a lawyer and let them handle it. This just sounds fishy to me.

SouthernUnderGod · Jul 10, 2019

This sounds like a scam or a setup for a robbery. A IRS agent told me that the government never calls a citizen unless the citizen called first. She said that any investigative activity is always preceded by a letter. I can’t say for certain if this is 100% the same for the ATF. However, I would never agree to show any agency a firearm without a warrant or other official document.

chrisdcd · Jul 11, 2019

thperez1972 said:
Thanks. I saw that on page 4.

Ok, good. I didn't read through the entire thread. Thanks

Magdump · Jul 11, 2019

So, does anyone here believe the info that a gun shop or FFL keeps on every gun purchase is the only record of the transaction?
Does anyone here think that since the Brady Bill and background checks came into existence, (early 1990’s?) the Feds have not kept their own records?

thperez1972 · Jul 11, 2019

Magdump said:
So, does anyone here believe the info that a gun shop or FFL keeps on every gun purchase is the only record of the transaction?
Does anyone here think that since the Brady Bill and background checks came into existence, (early 1990’s?) the Feds have not kept their own records?

We know the dealer asks the feds if you are allowed to buy a weapon without providing specific information on any weapon. Only after approval is the specific information written on the form and that form must remain at the business.

Where do you think the feds are getting their information? Is the dealer placing a 2nd call after you leave? Is the dealer making copies of their paperwork and sending it to the feds? Is the dealer voluntarily allowing the federal government access to the dealer's computer records?

Magdump · Jul 11, 2019

thperez1972 said:
We know the dealer asks the feds if you are allowed to buy a weapon without providing specific information on any weapon. Only after approval is the specific information written on the form and that form must remain at the business.

Where do you think the feds are getting their information? Is the dealer placing a 2nd call after you leave? Is the dealer making copies of their paperwork and sending it to the feds? Is the dealer voluntarily allowing the federal government access to the dealer's computer records?

We know the FFL provides specific info about the buyer along with type of firearm and then becomes the holder of records for the ATF, which they can go and refer to at any time. Does anyone here believe that the Feds don’t know how many long guns, handguns or other guns you’ve bought through an FFL/dealer/retailer and cannot in short order produce a list of those firearms complete with specific information all the way down to the serial number in short order?
Is that more clear?

I asked if anyone thought the FFL/dealer has the only record of the transaction. I didn’t ask about 2nd calls and specific info about the firearm or access to computers...
The list is there. Believe what you want. Unless you buy exclusively from private parties and bypass a background check, the Feds know what you have whether it’s right now or tomorrow, whether they look it up in their records or theirs and the FFL’s. The list is there and they have access.

thperez1972 · Jul 11, 2019

Magdump said:
So, does anyone here believe the info that a gun shop or FFL keeps on every gun purchase is the only record of the transaction?
Does anyone here think that since the Brady Bill and background checks came into existence, (early 1990’s?) the Feds have not kept their own records?

Magdump said:
We know the FFL provides specific info about the buyer along with type of firearm and then becomes the holder of records for the ATF, which they can go and refer to at any time. Does anyone here believe that the Feds don’t know how many long guns, handguns or other guns you’ve bought through an FFL/dealer/retailer and cannot in short order produce a list of those firearms complete with specific information all the way down to the serial number in short order?
Is that more clear?

I asked if anyone thought the FFL/dealer has the only record of the transaction. I didn’t ask about 2nd calls and specific info about the firearm or access to computers...
The list is there. Believe what you want. Unless you buy exclusively from private parties and bypass a background check, the Feds know what you have whether it’s right now or tomorrow, whether they look it up in their records or theirs and the FFL’s. The list is there and they have access.

You've "moved the goalposts." Your initial claim was the FFL was not the only place the info was stored and the Feds kept their own records. You adjusted claim was the Feds have access to the FFL's records. I agree with your adjusted claim the Feds can get the information they need from a FFL. I don't agree the Feds keep their own records of transactions.

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Bangswitch · Jul 11, 2019

Magdump said:
We know the FFL provides specific info about the buyer along with type of firearm and then becomes the holder of records for the ATF, which they can go and refer to at any time. Does anyone here believe that the Feds don’t know how many long guns, handguns or other guns you’ve bought through an FFL/dealer/retailer and cannot in short order produce a list of those firearms complete with specific information all the way down to the serial number in short order?
Is that more clear?

I asked if anyone thought the FFL/dealer has the only record of the transaction. I didn’t ask about 2nd calls and specific info about the firearm or access to computers...
The list is there. Believe what you want. Unless you buy exclusively from private parties and bypass a background check, the Feds know what you have whether it’s right now or tomorrow, whether they look it up in their records or theirs and the FFL’s. The list is there and they have access.

Based on the law I would like to think so, but the NSA wasn’t supposed to spy on American citizens’ phone calls, either based on the law.

That said without the FFL being complicit or going out of business the only Federal records of what exactly you bought should be in possession of the FFL.

This would lead me to believe that the ‘Feds’ would be hard pressed to have a list of everything you bought. Not saying they don’t but building a list would require cataloging data and that requires building a data base which is legislatively prohibited.

thperez1972 · Jul 11, 2019

Bangswitch said:
Based on the law I would like to think so, but the NSA wasn’t supposed to spy on American citizens’ phone calls, either based on the law.

That said without the FFL being complicit or going out of business the only Federal records of what exactly you bought should be in possession of the FFL.

This would lead me to believe that the ‘Feds’ would be hard pressed to have a list of everything you bought. Not saying they don’t but building a list would require cataloging data and that requires building a data base which is legislatively prohibited.

As I understand the law, when the records are sent in when a business closes, the Feds are allowed to scan the paperwork to store it digitally but they are not legally allowed to make that digital copy searchable.

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Bangswitch · Jul 11, 2019

thperez1972 said:
As I understand the law, when the records are sent in when a business closes, the Feds are allowed to scan the paperwork to store it digitally but they are not legally allowed to make that digital copy searchable.

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Thats kind of how I understand it as well.
Taking the data from the forms or e-forms and entering them into a database also prohibited (If my memory is working correctly).

Call from ATF to check some of my guns

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