OC with IWB

Hitman · Feb 27, 2009

Anyone else open carry with an IWB ?

AZ State has a specific law stating the amount of holster needed to be exposed to stiull be considered OC. I was wondering is LA law had something similar.

See, In Arizona, lawful open carry means having more than 1/2" square of the holster (excluding the belt loops) or weapon exposed; presuming a conventional holster (that includes all IWB and pocket holsters etc... but excludes pouches, fanny packs, and holsters specifically intended to disguise a gun, like a PagerPal).

So with a small gun (in this case a Kel-Tec P3AT), in a simple pocket sheath, lawful open carry looks something like this:

I don't think LA states anything similar, just wondering if anyone has seen it in the Law books.

Thanks

gunz4me · Feb 27, 2009

I was once told by a police officer that if ANY part of the handgun was concealed from view, you "could" be arrested for illegal carrying of a firearm. Kind of a moot point because I prefer concealed carry anyhow. I like the element of surprise.... well used to before that tragic boating accident in Vermilion Bay!

Hitman · Feb 27, 2009

gunz4me said:
I was once told by a police officer

Nah, I've had two LSP officers standing behind me in line at Taco Bell few weeks ago. They didn't say a word.

I hope you don't listen to everything LEO's have to say about the law. If everything I've heard them say, was law, we'd be allowed one BB gun per household. :rolleyes:

gunz4me · Feb 27, 2009

Hitman said:
Nah, I've had two LSP officers standing behind me in line at Taco Bell few weeks ago. They didn't say a word.

I hope you don't listen to everything LEO's have to say about the law. If everything I've heard them say were was law, we'd be allowed one BB gun per household.

Nope, but I would just rather avoid the hassle all together.

Witness · Feb 27, 2009

i do my best to conceal, however i am not a nervous CCW person. you can always tell the nervous types, they are constantly pulling their shirt down and such. if my shirt rides up a little and it shows, then so be it. if i have to bend over for something or reach over my head i dont worry about the gun, its not the end of the world.

to answer the question, yes i have carried like this. only when i'm wearing a sport coat or some other type of over coat. if i get out to pump gas or whatever else and its hot or i just dont feel like going back to get my jacket then i just go about my business. never had anyone ever say a word. other times i do it simply b/c i forgot to put my jacket on.

Hitman · Feb 27, 2009

gunz4me said:
Nope, but I would just rather avoid the hassle all together.

Hassle ? The only hassle comes when Law Enforcement hassle a law abiding citizen b/c law enforcement doesn't KNOW the law. Then you've effectively created HASSLE and HARASSMENT. As we see daily when LE Departments across the Nation are getting their check books out b/c their Officers of the law have HASSLED someone too far.

I'd say the hassle is, paying to carry/defend yourself. But that's another TOPIC altogether PLEASE

Back on topic, here's what I've found so far from the LACarry Site.

This is State v. Fluker 311 So. 2d 863, a 1975 case which discusses the determination of concealment as stated in State v. Bias.
http://louisianacarry.org/caselaw/fluker.htm

La. R.S. 14:95(A)(1) (1950), as amended, La. Acts 1968, No. 647, § 1.
Clearly, the present version of the statute differs from its predecessors by requiring intentional concealment. Thus, the old formula, which required that the weapon be carried in full open view, is obsolete. By making the offense of concealment a crime of specific intent, the legislature has abandoned the old rule that a partially hidden weapon is a concealed weapon in favor of a more realistic proscription that contemplates that a weapon, although not in "full, open view," is nonetheless not a "concealed" weapon if it is sufficiently exposed to reveal its identity. If the weapon is carried in a manner that reveals its identity, its carrier cannot be presumed to have intended to conceal it and, accordingly, is not in violation of the statute.

Anyone have anything that contradicts this ?

gunz4me · Feb 27, 2009

This reminds me of what one of my friends once asked me regarding if my concealed carry piece accidentally gets exposed. I just say "Alrighty then, open carry it is!"

Hitman · Feb 27, 2009

gunz4me said:
This reminds me of what one of my friends once asked me regarding if my concealed carry piece accidentally gets exposed. I just say "Alrighty then, open carry it is!"

Good point, & True, Texas deals with this often, but they cannot OC at all. Their senator said that CC holders would not be charged with OC if their shirt flies up or etc. But that's for lawyers to decide.

BTW I think there is a charge of "Illegal Concealment of a Handgun". Not sure if it applies to CC holders though. Somehow I don't think having a CHP is a free for all card.

Rahllin · Feb 27, 2009

It actually kind of pisses me off because this was an issue that I questioned when taking my class for my conceal carry permit at Percision. The instructor told us that with a permit you MUST carry concealed, and that if you are carrying concealed and the weapon comes into view that it is against the law. This confused me because I looked forward to being able to CC or OC, so after the class was over and everyone was walking out, I went up and addressed this with the instructor. I simply asked him "If I get my CCP does that mean I am not allowed to OC?" His response was "No." So I asked him "so, that means I have to decided whether I want to be allowed to legally CC or OC before I get my permit?" and his response was "Yes." Everything I've heard before and after this contradicted what he told me, but ever since, I have always been nervous about the idea of my hand gun coming into view in public. From what I've heard hear and from several other permit holders is that what I was "taught" in this class was completely incorrect. I wish I could remember this instructor's name.

Bayoupiper · Feb 27, 2009

I suppose pointing out that IWB holsters were originally designed with concealed carry in mind is pointless with you lot.............

.

LouisianaCarry · Feb 27, 2009

LA does not have a "rule."

The legislature intentionally left this out to be a jury question. That is to say, the DA's office has to prove that:

1) The item in question was indeed for probably use as a weapon (cut and dry pretty much for a gun, but leaves a grey area for many knives, etc), and
2) That you INTENDED to conceal it. Not that your shirt happened to cover it or to what degree it was covered, etc. It revolves around intent in LA. Even if for a brief period it is concealed, that is not proof by itself. Neither is an intentionally concealed weapon considered openly carried if it happens to become visible momentarily.

You really just need to read this LA SC opinion to understand it better:

State v. Fluker 311 So. 2d 863, a 1975 case which discusses the determination of concealment of a firearm

ETA: I tell people if they do not have a permit and have to/want to carry openly, then (while not strictly necessary) it is certainly safest to make it as apparent as possible. The idea being that you want it to be as hard as possible for them to prove that intent I mentioned. It could save you time and money, but if you have a CHP, then it is all irrelevant, since you are legal regardless.

Swampy · Feb 27, 2009

Rahllin said:
It actually kind of pisses me off because this was an issue that I questioned when taking my class for my conceal carry permit at Percision. The instructor told us that with a permit you MUST carry concealed, and that if you are carrying concealed and the weapon comes into view that it is against the law. This confused me because I looked forward to being able to CC or OC, so after the class was over and everyone was walking out, I went up and addressed this with the instructor. I simply asked him "If I get my CCP does that mean I am not allowed to OC?" His response was "No." So I asked him "so, that means I have to decided whether I want to be allowed to legally CC or OC before I get my permit?" and his response was "Yes." Everything I've heard before and after this contradicted what he told me, but ever since, I have always been nervous about the idea of my hand gun coming into view in public. From what I've heard hear and from several other permit holders is that what I was "taught" in this class was completely incorrect. I wish I could remember this instructor's name.

Open carry is legal .... Therefore even if you have a CCP you can open carry.. Whoever told you that you could not ... Is WRONG....

Thats like saying once you get a drivers license you can no longer walk to work....

Swampy · Feb 27, 2009

Bayoupiper said:
I suppose pointing out that IWB holsters were originally designed with concealed carry in mind is pointless with you lot.............

.

Seems to be a moot point.... :rofl:

But thanks for pointing it out...

Back on topic... The way I read it... (and I am not a lawyer) if you are intentionally trying to conceal (without a permit) then its illegal... Open carry is open.. I just think that you will get yourself in a pinch trying to say you where Open carrying with an IWB holster...

Rahllin · Feb 27, 2009

Swampy said:
Open carry is legal .... Therefore even if you have a CCP you can open carry.. Whoever told you that you could not ... Is WRONG....

Thats like saying once you get a drivers license you can no longer walk to work....

And that was my exact mindset. That is why what the guy said during class threw me off and the reason why I stayed after to address him about it. I hear about situations that often arise from law enforcement not knowing about all the gun laws, but this guy was TEACHING a class about the laws of carrying a weapon. It was right at two years ago now, so I can't remember this guys name, but I wish I had a way of contacting him to ask him this again, since I've since learned a lot more than I knew then.

LouisianaCarry · Feb 27, 2009

http://louisianacarry.org/oc

Do I give up my right to open carry if I get a concealed handgun permit?
NO! This is misinformation that has spread around the State for some time now. Supposedly, certain individuals working for the State Police at one time were informing concealed handgun instructors to inform those who applied for a permit that, if approved, they would no longer allowed to open carry. There is no basis for this in law, and can be ignored without breaking any law.

Hitman · Feb 27, 2009

Rahllin said:
It actually kind of pisses me off because this was an issue that I questioned when taking my class for my conceal carry permit at Percision. The instructor told us that with a permit you MUST carry concealed, and that if you are carrying concealed and the weapon comes into view that it is against the law. This confused me because I looked forward to being able to CC or OC, so after the class was over and everyone was walking out, I went up and addressed this with the instructor. I simply asked him "If I get my CCP does that mean I am not allowed to OC?" His response was "No." So I asked him "so, that means I have to decided whether I want to be allowed to legally CC or OC before I get my permit?" and his response was "Yes." Everything I've heard before and after this contradicted what he told me, but ever since, I have always been nervous about the idea of my hand gun coming into view in public. From what I've heard hear and from several other permit holders is that what I was "taught" in this class was completely incorrect. I wish I could remember this instructor's name.

Well your friends were right. Although having one of those permits will indeed bind you to more restrictive laws when carrying.

Rahllin said:
The instructor told us that with a permit you MUST carry concealed,

That's absolutely FALSE.

XD-GEM · Feb 27, 2009

Rahllin said:
<SNIP> I wish I could remember this instructor's name.

It ought to be on your certificate from the class, along with his instructor's number. If you can't get hold of him, call Sgt. Starnes at LSP CHP unit. He gets mighty upset with instructors that do this - it's an indicator that they may possibly not be teaching the other laws correctly either.

Nolacopusmc · Feb 27, 2009

Under 15:1305, they do a great job of makinf it unclear...

Concealed Handgun―any handgun as defined in R.S. 40:1379.3(J)(1), which is carried on a person in such a manner as to hide or obscure the handgun from plain view.

This is what you would be charged with if you were attempting OC and accussed of CC:

LRS 14:95
§95. Illegal carrying of weapons
A. Illegal carrying of weapons is:
(1) The intentional concealment of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, on one's person; or

They would have to prove intent to conceal. Casual coverage by a shirt when otherwise in plain view would not, inthe opinion of most DA's, consitute intent. unless of course, they are communists.

Hitman · Feb 27, 2009

XD-GEM said:
- it's an indicator that they may possibly not be teaching the other laws correctly either.

No Suprise there ...

LSP972 said:
Pointless? Can you not see the beauty of it????

TACTICAL Open Carry!

How ingenious...

.

Yea, as in looking like John Wayne, or thinking more tactical.

Sorry if that's hard for you to grasp.

Bayoupiper · Feb 28, 2009

LSP972 said:
Pointless? Can you not see the beauty of it????

TACTICAL Open Carry!

How ingenious...

.

.

OC with IWB

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