3D Printers-

[returningliberty]

Hey guys, I'm considering selling an AR and picking up a 3D printer. I want one to make, well, whatever I want to make. widgets, iPhone cases, (not gun parts, though a holster or two maybe, and some reloading equipment.....), whatever. I just want one lol. These suckers are the future and there's more than a few that can be had for less than 2k.

I'm looking specifically at the CubeX, which is right @ $2500. Its kind of expensive for an office toy, the Cube is about a thousand dollars cheaper, but only half the size of printer area. So, what are your guys' thoughts? Does anyone have any experience in 3d printing, if so what are your recommendations, etc?

 

[JNieman]

My experience with 3d printers is split mainly in 3 areas... as an operator/user it was mostly older tech, based on what is now a patented process of Z Corp, which is powder-bed printing. Bed of powder (material varies wildly) with an "inkjet" print head squirting the binder. 10 years ago when I was learning this stuff, we referred to is as SLA / Solid Layer Additive process. Now SLA more universally means Stereolithography which is another process entirely. I've used printers that had corn starch as the powder with a glue binder, and some with a vinyl-polymer powder (unsure specifically) and binder which resulted in flexible parts.

Next, my experience comes as a customer using commercial 3d printers by contract. This was mainly as a Stratasys printer using FDM / Fused Deposition Modeling, which is essentially fancy, more refined extruder machines. I've had 2 different jobs where I had to coordinate with the printers with my own CAD models to get adequate products, but I had only had the very basics of lessons on running such machines, and no worthwhile experience to speak of.

Third, my knowledge and experience with extruders at the hobby level, which you're getting into, is as a spectator, for now. I have a handful of friends who are deep into it. One just finished building a MakerBot. A few friends are members of different HackerSpaces who use and operate various extruders there. A couple people I know are trying to find a way to justify buying one for their business as entrepreneurs and/or business owners and experiment with different types, and have traveled around looking into the various machines.

First, you need to identify what you'd want to use it for.
Second, you need to identify how much work you're willing to do to keep the machine calibrated, leveled, and conduct other maintenance and repairs, and how capable you are at performing them. Even some of the OOTB assembled machines require a lot of maintenance.
Third, you should consider what your PRACTICAL limit of print-bed size is. Consider that parts can be printed in blocks, sometimes, and fused or mechanically fastened together as an assembly, rather than monolithic.
Fourth, what material types should you require for the parts you'll be printing? You cannot use a standard extruder for many things, which is made all the more clear by people with hobby-grade extruders who attempt to make DefCAD's Liberator and AR15 lower and find their plastic just doesn't hold up like Cody Whatshisname's does.
Last, you should consider how much accuracy, precision, and surface finish matter to you, and if you want to do much sanding/smoothing to make a pretty surface.

I've done a lot of reading and research into extruders, and for a price in the range that you and I are looking at, which seems similar, I don't think I want an extruder. I'm more inclined to head into the Stereolithography realm. For example, I have my eye following the development of the Form Labs types: http://formlabs.com/

If those pan out after customer reviews, I think I'd prefer saving up for one of those. It's a "buy once cry once" type of thing, imo, and those parts come out head and shoulders above most of the spider-butt-printers that leave rough and sometimes heat-warped parts. I'm on the fence, but I also need to find the 'cost to feed' as well. There are few additional considerations for storing the raw materials for a UV-cured resin printer, such as needing a dark-space to store the resin, lest natural UV light cure it while it sits.

 

[JNieman]

Oh, and I would make sure you're at least competent with some form of CAD software to the extent where you won't need much help. Peer support in the DIY realm is great, but only goes so far, and often isn't real-time, if you need a quick fix. I have full licenses on my personal machine for a few great packages that cost several thousand dollars, so I'm ahead of the game by virtue of my employment, however for the hobbyist I've heard good things about Autodesk 123D which is geared for this role entirely.

Also, for Sketchup is there, and I believe exports to .stl files. Rhino3d is cheap and uber-powerful, and if you're a full time student, you get a perpetual license for mega-cheap that you are free to use after you're no longer a student, for any thing, even for profit. Their licensing is fantastic. Solidworks ... I don't know if they have a cheap/free limited piece, but I believe they do offer students a free license, as well as Autodesk Inventor, maybe. I am unsure if you have to prove it's relevant to your field of study or not. It's been a while since I've had to apply for student software.

 

[returningliberty]

Thanks for your incredibly informative reply. I appreciate it. I'm experienced in Sketchup and have some exposure to limited CAD. I think i'd do ok on most consumer-oriented CAD systems, and completely over my head on professional ones. That's one of the reasons I was looking at the Cube. It has a very straightforward CAD program that comes with it. That may in itself limit the flexibility of the program, but the machine is capable of reading other program types, so I can learn as I go there. As for the printing deck, I was thinking very seriously about either mechanical fasteners or welding the plastic, so I thought the printing deck size was Almost immaterial to the little hobby type things I plan to do with it. But, since I have ZERO experience, I wanted to defer to someone better qualified.

As for the work I'm committed to keeping the damn thing running, I really don't want a system that requires the kind of TLC my Hornday LnL AP does. I want a "set and forget" system that just requires the minimum amount of periodic maintanence. I want to print in ABS, not cheapy plastic. I would print in better polymers, but to get there the machines are out of my price range by a few orders of magnitude. Accuracy and precision matter to me a lot, but not as much on the surface finish. I can sand and paint or refinnish till my hearts content.

lastly, do you have any recommended reading I jump into? As far as I'm aware there is no "idiots guide to additive manufacturing".

 

[Dishonored]

Don't have much knowledge with them...
However a very knowledgable little bird told me to invest in some stock for them so I did. Doesn't seem to be too bad unless they crash and fail.

 

[goteron]

I would look at the Stratasys Mojo over the Cubex.

But, I would actually suggest against one. We almost bought one at the Unity office, but it just didn't make sense. The technology is changing so quickly these days, that $2,500 spent today will yield a poor return in a year when Pro-sumer SLS is available.

I would mirror what JNieman said about learning CAD as well as you can, and then use a place like Quickparts to get things made. After comsumables, parts, time, and effort, its cheaper to outsource something like that. Or look for a lease option with equipment upgrade capability that comes with support. They offer a wider variety of materials (Fiber reinforced nylon for instance), and processes. Between quickparts and first-cut, you can get anything made quickly and cheaply.

I would strongly suggest learning solidworks.

Unless its just a hobby... Then I would look at the Mojo.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Disclaimer: We at Unity do not use Solidworks. It's proprietary. That is all.

 

[returningliberty]

I would look at the Stratasys Mojo over the Cubex.

But, I would actually suggest against one. We almost bought one at the Unity office, but it just didn't make sense. The technology is changing so quickly these days, that $2,500 spent today will yield a poor return in a year when Pro-sumer SLS is available.

I would mirror what JNieman said about learning CAD as well as you can, and then use a place like Quickparts to get things made. After comsumables, parts, time, and effort, its cheaper to outsource something like that. Or look for a lease option with equipment upgrade capability that comes with support. They offer a wider variety of materials (Fiber reinforced nylon for instance), and processes. Between quickparts and first-cut, you can get anything made quickly and cheaply.

I would strongly suggest learning solidworks.

Unless its just a hobby... Then I would look at the Mojo.

Yeah, It's just a hobby. I am not looking at any commercial application whatsoever. I have no desire to make things to prototype or sell. I will check out the mojo and solidworks. Thanks for the info!

 

[returningliberty]

Disclaimer: We at Unity do not use Solidworks. It's proprietary. That is all.

....lol.

 

[vsound]

I have a Makerbot 2 at work. Fun piece of equipment when it works the way you want it. There's some learning curve to them, and they are definitely not "set it and forget it" pieces of equipment. Sketchup works just fine for building most things (the free version). There is another add-in program you will need to search for and download to allow Sketchup to export to .stl files. Also run your files through cloud.netfabb.com to clean them up. The Makerbot doesn't like the directly exported files very much.

 

[JNieman]

Man, if I were to try to nail down any one source for reading up on this ****, I'd be hard pressed to name a handful. There are a number of blogs and aggregators out there I catch wind of, and a lot of it is gleaned from an IRC channel I perpetually stay logged in at which is populated by some friends and a lot of other nerds on various topics, some of which being new technology, DIY, and guns which means I catch a lot of this stuff quick.

If you don't already have a reddit.com account, I'd sign up for one and subscribe to /r/3dPrinting and scour around for any other subreddits of that type. Even if you don't participate or comment, I use Reddit for news aggregation, mostly. I get a whole host of user-filtered links to new topics and products every time I check in.

I would advise /against/ any indiegogo, kickstarter, etc projects. Everyone and their mom is starting a ****ing kickstarter for the next greatest 3d Printer and few every deliver, and many are entering the time frame where supporters are pressing legal action to recoup lost funds from abandoned projects who don't communicate with investors. I doubt they get any money back, but at best they get a lean on someone's shop or something I guess. I dunno.

Goteron brings up a salient point though regarding the technology, but there's another facet to it. While the technology is developing rapidly and in great leaps and bounds, it is also a current problem-child in the patent and copyright realm. Douche****s are quickly taking existing technology and patenting it with success, and applying it to companies and developers of small projects who cannot afford to fight it. They are also being granted patents on extremely basic and integral parts and functions, such as the very presence of a box that encloses the print bed to keep heat better. It's essential to some materials that you keep the part warm during the print process and using a box to limit heat loss is a pretty simple and basic solution that was practiced by manner before the patent. Things like that are killing some startups.

However if you want to limit the required maintenance, I'd stay away from startups and small companies anyways. They usually put out rather rough and sensitive equipment anyways in exchange for being cheap. Check the "consumer reports" from users of a product you want to buy. Youtube is used quite a lot for reviews and what not.

You will find it boring to listen to some nerd ramble on about **** you don't care about, hoping to glean a gem of experience/knowledge, but sometimes there's no substitute.

 

[JNieman]

Disclaimer: We at Unity do not use Solidworks. It's proprietary. That is all.

Pft, experienced users can identify the software you use from looking at a screenshot or a rendering

Y'all use legit Tier 1 mil-spec software though, I can tell.

 

[JNieman]

Oh, and I forgot about it until now.

You may want to hold on and see how these guys pan out: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=20562519779

I discovered that via someone on reddit.com/r/3dprinting , http://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/1f07db/interesting_little_chinese_3d_printer_i_came/ , and someone repping the company was even posting.

If you're willing to benefit from China importing products that Americans can't competitively market due to our ****ed up patent offices, you can come out way ahead. This product ends up being about $550 shipped. Some people seemed very interested in it, so it might be worth checking around the net to see if it's worth a crap. It sure is cheap, which is good for a hobbyist.

 

[returningliberty]

I am personally hesitant to buy anything worth real money from a company I'm not sure has english speaking customer service. I looked at the formlabs Form1 and while very sexy looking, is out of my price range. plus the cost of resin is physically painful. I think i'm going to play around on some CAD programs from awhile (I have a couple of free trials) and see if its something i want to delve further into before I drop 2k on an FDM machine.

 

[rrussotwo]

Learn the software, create some models and outsource the printing until the consumer technology is robust enough.

 

[Akajun]

Or buy a tormach machining center and learn to use g code and make firearms that can last a lifetime.

 

[JNieman]

Or buy a tormach machining center and learn to use g code and make firearms that can last a lifetime.

Not really a comparable tool- not a tool that can replace the other. They overlap a good bit, but also, there is a slew of differences in the pro/con column that would make one a bad choice and the other not. I like and can use both... just saying.

I do agree, though, that there's a lot of people who use 3d printing as a solution to problems it's not ideal for.