Advice on caliber for knock down power

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  • dzelenka

    D.R. 1827; HM; P100x3
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Mar 2, 2008
    4,013
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    Covington
    Gonna haveto go with less.

    At 1,000 I kept it within 3.5 MOA with my Barrett, I remember I opened up a good bit between 800 and 900 (MUCH harder)
    Now, there's MANY people who are MUCH better shots than I.

    But most hunters don't hunt with a 1MOA rifle.

    So if we say 2MOA gun/ammo combo we're talking 16-18 inch grouping (Or area for one shot)

    That's with NO varriation from the shooter, no matter the position.

    We have tiny Deer.

    I don't call that ethical.

    It is not relevant that most hunters don't hunt with a 1 MOA rifle. Most hunters can't make an unsupported shot from 100 yards. We are not talking about most hunters. A number of people I know, myself included, hunt with a 1/2 MOA rifle. Besides, if you are going to do this, you would have specialized equipment so we are not talking about 16 - 18 inch grouping or a 2 MOA gun/ammo combination.

    Your target size is going to be roughly 16" tall and 20 or so inches wide. For the sake of round numbers, we will call it 2 MOA tall. We know the exact distance to the target and we can assume the shooter knows the correct elevation to put on the rifle for that distance. The only elevation variation will be ammunition, but we have taken Xmeister's advanced reloading class so the ammo is capable of holding 1/2 MOA. The only other elevation question is how well can the shooter hold.

    From position, I can shoot better than 2 MOA with a service rifle using post sights. With a aperture sights or a scope, it is more like 1/2 that, one of our forum members shot a group from the prone position at 600 yards with open sights that was less than 1/2 MOA tall. However, we don't have to worry about shooting with a sling. Since we are smart and prepared, we have a proper rest. Elevation holding errors are therefore minimized.

    The big problem is the wind. With a proper rifle, you are still going to need to be able to call a full value wind within 2 mph for your first shot if you are unlucky enough to not have some kind of wind break (like shooting down a pipeline) or to not have the wind at somewhat less than a 60 - 90 degree angle. The wind drift on .223 ammunition used for highpower has about the same drift in inches at 600 yards as a 7mm or 300 RUM has at 880. I know there are 5 guys on BS.com who can put the first shot in a 12" ten ring at 600 yards with a service rifle nearly every time. They should be able to do the same in this situation.

    The statement was that "there's maybe 5 or less people on this site who can shoot that distance accurately enough to hunt ethically." Putting ethics into the equation really muddies the water because ethics is in the eye of the beholder. Accuracy-wise, I believe there are more than 5 people on the forum who have the skills to make the shot given the proper equipment and situation (obviously a gusting full value wind would not be the proper situation). I personally limit myself to 400 yards and in although I have a new scope with an adjustable elevation turret that could spell trouble for something that lingers too long out to 600 yards. My rifle isn't set up for anything longer than that.

    Tulse, I am not going to bet body parts on anyone else's skill. That doesn't mean that BS members like bjenkins can't make the shot.
     

    dzelenka

    D.R. 1827; HM; P100x3
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    6   0   0
    Mar 2, 2008
    4,013
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    Covington
    This was shot at 600 yards by a forum member using open sights and a sling. Note that the last 16 shots are in a group that is 1/2 MOA in elevation and 1 1/2 MOA wide.SOme of the guys shoot pretty well.

    cqg9i10405pltl5oiysl.jpg
     

    Nomad.2nd

    Well-Known Member
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    66   0   1
    Dec 9, 2007
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    Baton Rouge... Mostly
    dzelenka:

    I was actually allowing 1 MOA for the rifle, and 1 MOA for the Ammo.

    I AM NOT anything NEAR a 'long distance' or 'precision shooter'

    But I have shot on the range, and in the field.

    BIG difference.

    Do I believe shooters here can make the shot?

    Yes.

    ethically?

    No.

    -That's HUNTING.

    Combat... fire away.

    Oh... paper doesn't move.
     

    dzelenka

    D.R. 1827; HM; P100x3
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    6   0   0
    Mar 2, 2008
    4,013
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    Covington
    Nomad,

    You really cannot separate the rifle from the ammo. We both may have rifles mechanically capable of shooting 1/2 MOA; however, my rifle may shoot that well with its preferred ammo and the same ammo may shoot 1 1/2 MOA in your rifle. When most people speak in terms of rifle accuracy, they are speaking of gun/ammo combination.

    There may or may not be a big difference between the field and the range in this case. I would expect someone who was serious about shooting game at this range to stack the odds in his favor by shooting from a stable position. i. e. an elevated shooting platform that is set up for a sandbag rest. Before you laugh, there are people who do this on big agricultural fields.

    There is no doubt that the long time of flight for the bullet could allow the animal to take a step or maybe more resulting in a bad hit or a miss.

    In my opinion, it stopped being hunting at 1/4 mile. This is shooting.

    It is legal so the ethical issue would be personal to the shooter. For example: a 45-70 is legal for primitive weapons season in LA, but there is one BS member who won't use anything more modern than a side hammer muzzle loader. Who is right? The point being that what you or I consider unethical may not be so to someone else.
     

    Nomad.2nd

    Well-Known Member
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    66   0   1
    Dec 9, 2007
    6,823
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    Baton Rouge... Mostly
    Nomad,

    You really cannot separate the rifle from the ammo. We both may have rifles mechanically capable of shooting 1/2 MOA; however, my rifle may shoot that well with its preferred ammo and the same ammo may shoot 1 1/2 MOA in your rifle. When most people speak in terms of rifle accuracy, they are speaking of gun/ammo combination. Ummm, I know. That's what I said earlier.

    There may or may not be a big difference between the field and the range in this case.Disagree. Range unknown, wind not as precisely measured (Yes, I know how to judge in the field) unknown target size, target moving, sitting there for hours etc. I would expect someone who was serious about shooting game at this range to stack the odds in his favor by shooting from a stable position. i. e. an elevated shooting platform that is set up for a sandbag rest. Before you laugh, there are people who do this on big agricultural fields. Don't understand it, but you are right, but see my last comment.

    There is no doubt that the long time of flight for the bullet could allow the animal to take a step or maybe more resulting in a bad hit or a miss. Thank you for making my point. NOT ETHICAL! End statement.

    In my opinion, it stopped being hunting at 1/4 mile. This is shooting.

    It is legal so the ethical issue would be personal to the shooter. For example: a 45-70 is legal for primitive weapons season in LA, but there is one BS member who won't use anything more modern than a side hammer muzzle loader. Who is right? The point being that what you or I consider unethical may not be so to someone else.

    See last statement.
     

    bayoupirate

    God of Thunder
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    8   0   0
    Jul 9, 2009
    1,230
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    Raceland, Louisiana
    Ethical hunters use every advantge possible to make a clean and effective kill the is humane to the animal, out of respect for it, and leaves little chance for loss of a wounded animal. Anyone who sets up in a specific spot and doesn't account for a gun rest, rail, tree, branch, shooting sticks, tripod or other support device is doing less than their best. sure an animal can approach and offer a shot at an angle not expected or planned, and an offhand unsupported shot may be an option. Did you practice shooting offhand? what's your comfort level? surely you don't think your effective ethical range unsupported is the same as a fully supported rest? I hope hunters take the time to practice, hone their skills and use a reality-base thought process to choose shots taken on animals. Just because Mark Wahlberg hit that can of Dinnty Moore Beef Stew at a mile, doen't mean you can. Know your equipments limitations and your own.

    Please be an ethical hunter and pass that tradition of honor on to young hunters.
     

    Yrdawg

    *Banned*
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    0   0   0
    Sep 24, 2006
    8,386
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    Big Woods
    10mm fired out of a typical 5" barrel loses vaporization velocity right around 620 yards. At a half mile it will only knock you down, kick dirt in your face and sleep with your wife.


    My ol lady ran off with a 10 mm after this happened to me...is there a support group forum ??

    and.....my elk was vaporized too, not a good day all around
     
    Rating - 100%
    38   0   0
    Mar 24, 2009
    1,691
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    Gonzales
    This was shot at 600 yards by a forum member using open sights and a sling. Note that the last 16 shots are in a group that is 1/2 MOA in elevation and 1 1/2 MOA wide.SOme of the guys shoot pretty well.

    cqg9i10405pltl5oiysl.jpg

    Man you guys waste alot of good targets why not shoot the same hole save money? :p
     

    dwr461

    Well-Known Member
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    4   0   0
    Jan 23, 2009
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    Baton Rouge
    dzelenka is the master of rifle stuff. Particularly as it pertains to accuracy. This is not any claim he ever made but from reading his posts over the years I'm going to listen to him. I've never seen him get involved with a flame war. I've always found what he had to say to be level headed and well thought out. So I'm going to take his word on this subject.

    But I got to say why use 1/2 mile and instead of 1000 meters like the rest of the internet sniper want to be's in the world? Don't shoot at something that far away unless you're an expert. I think most experts would know enough not to try it unless they had perfect conditions. Even then an actual expert in the field of long range shooting would KNOW enough to be hesitant. No one wants to wound an animal.

    Dave
     
    Last edited:

    dzelenka

    D.R. 1827; HM; P100x3
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Mar 2, 2008
    4,013
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    Covington
    I don't know if anyone noticed: but although I believe that there are more than 5 BS members who could make that shot (a hit would not be luck), my personal limitations on game are much shorter.

    "I personally limit myself to 400 yards" and "In my opinion, it stopped being hunting at 1/4 mile."

    Take from it what you would like.

    Dan

    PS If the OP had to ask the question, he certainly isn't qualified to use the equipment.
     

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