Another...which 1911 thread

[Cajun_Chuck]

I want...no NEED to buy a 1911.

Here's the deal. I have been to the 1911.com forums and read as much as I could about which one, why, etc. and have pretty much narrowed it down to a Springfield Armory 1911.

I have shot many shotguns & most of the "plastic" pistols, but never a 1911. FYI, I carry a G23 daily.

I want to buy a new or almost new 1911 that if I have to pull it off my hip, it will perform like my glock. I have put over 1000 rounds through it, and have never had a problem. I squeeze, it goes bang and looks good while doing it. I want this 1911 for OWB carry.

If anyone can help, please feel free to post or PM your opinions, thought and/on questions. I do not want to spend a fortune on it, 600-700, but would be willing to put up a little more if I had to.

Thanks in advance.
-Chuck

 

[Cajun_Chuck]

You seek the mythical unobtainium; especially at your stated price point....You asked for opinions. In mine, you need to either raise your budget or lower your expectations...

.

Ok, I will raise it then. What about $1000. I can not go more than that for my first 1911. I don't want to spend $2500 on a Les Bauer or a Predator right now. For my first, I just want to be able to pull out a good looking, reliable pistol, pull the trigger knowing that it will go bang!

 

[wadepat2]

For that price I would go with the Springfield but I dont own one so take that for what its worth. I bought a Kimber this year and really like it. Its a 3" and goes bang everytime but I only have about 400 rounds through it. Their are a bunch of post on other forums that say theirs wouldnt run right from 500 dollars up to 3500 dollars. I would buy the one you like and if it doesnt run smooth find mags it likes,find ammo it likes, and if all else fails send it back to fix it.
Like I said I love mine and I sold my Glock .I will say I didnt worry about the Glock I never even thought about it not working. It will take awhile before I get that way with my Kimber mostly because of all the post I read. I stopped researching which one to buy and just bought the one I wanted and it works.

 

[jmcrawf1]

Just brush up on your tap-rack-bangs

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Nice older loose 1911...

If it rattles when you shake it... It'll probably work!

 

[Cajun_Chuck]

Does anyone have a Springfield Operator? Or have ever fired one?

Edit: This is in .45ACP by the way...the 1911 I want.

Another Edit: I ask this because I read on another site,

I realize that one can work out those things, but frankly if I did not have a semi-auto and were starting today I would select Glocks as the best OB trouble free gun.

I would not get rid of my 1911s (it has taken too much time, money, and effort to get them reliable enough for me) but would not buy another.

Is this the consensus on this site?

 

[dmiculek]

If your looking for a basic 1911 that will not break the bank. Look at the SA "loaded" model. It has decent fixed sights, beavertail and lowered ejection port. I own the 9mm version and it's reliability is on par with my G17

Most folks problems with 1911's are self-enduced. (with the aid of the dremel tool)

 

[Ske1etor]

What the hell is it with people thinking that you have to spend over a grand to get a 1911 that will be reliable?

Get the Springfield Loaded. jester1787 has a Springfield Loaded that has been absolutely reliable from day one. It was tight at first but loosened up after a few hundred rounds. Still didn't have any stoppages.

I own a Kimber Custom II and have had a few problems with it. The first problem was an out of spec slide stop from the factory, Kimber made it better by shipping a new slide stop for free. The only other problems I have had were caused by me changing parts and causing problems. It runs 100% now that I stopped playing with it... lol.

I would grab for either of these 1911's before I would grab for a Glock in any shitty situation.

 

[dawg23]

I have been to the 1911.com forums and read as much as I could about which one, why, etc. and have pretty much narrowed it down to a Springfield Armory 1911.........


I want to buy a new or almost new 1911 that if I have to pull it off my hip, it will perform like my Glock.........

You have done some internet research.
You have heard of good & bad experiences with 1911's.
You need to do more research.

If you are expecting to buy a 1911 and have it run "out of the box" like a Glock or a Sig, the odds are not in your favor. If you expect it to run like a Glock or a Sig after break-in and after maybe one or two trips back to the factory, the odds may be in your favor, but probably aren't.

Sure, you'll find people (like some who have posted here) who own or have owned 1911's that were 100% reliable. They are members of a very small minority. Their experience is quite rare ....and conversely it is even more rare to have a problem with a G19, a G17 or a G23.

The additional research I am suggesting is for you to talk with instructors at some of the big shooting academies (Tactical Response, Thunder Ranch or Rangemaster, just to name a few) and ask which firearms they see crapping out during the classes they teach. These guys have trained thousands of students ........they know what a reliable handgun is.

I will respectfully suggest (yeah, that "respectful" part is rare for me) that you stop and think about the difference between a "range gun" that is super accurate and fun to shoot, and a self defense handgun that is expected to go bang every time.

Ask yourself why you carry a handgun ....the answer should be "Because someone may suddenly, unexpectedly and viciously try to kill, kidnap or rape (or all of the above) me or a family member." If this is your answer, then ask yourself why you would even consider carrying anything less than the most reliable handgun you can buy.

If you are willing to spend the time and money making your 1911 as reliable as a Glock, and are also prepared to spend the requisite amount of time that is required for you to be able to reliably manipulate the controls under extreme stress, then perhaps the 1911 is a good choice. The question isn't whether or not a 1911 can be reliable .......the questions are "How lucky are you?" (you might get a good one) and "How committed are you to making it reliable?"

If on the other hand you really just need an attractive, gun (wood grips, blued steel, etc), then you definitely need a 1911.

Glocks are ugly. So are XD's, M&P's, HK's and some SIG's. Surprisingly, the ugly guns go bang when you pull the trigger. Go ask those instructors which guns puke most frequently in their classes. (Send me a PM if you'd like to get some email addresses or cell phone numbers for some of these guys).

 

[Cajun_Chuck]

First, you have to remember to take the safety off.

If you've been carrying a Glock, and expect to jump right into carrying a 1911 with no familiarization/training (a LOT of it), you're setting yourself up for a real bad time.


.

I have read the quote cocked & locked many times or Condition 1 as the preferred carry method. Of course, I will do plenty of shooting with it. I like to shoot guns!

You have done some internet research.
You have heard of good & bad experiences with 1911's.
You need to do more research.

Agreed.

If you are expecting to buy a 1911 and have it run "out of the box" like a Glock or a Sig, the odds are not in your favor. If you expect it to run like a Glock or a Sig after break-in and after maybe one or two trips back to the factory, the odds may be in your favor, but probably aren't.

Sure, you'll find people (like some who have posted here) who own or have owned 1911's that were 100% reliable. They are members of a very small minority. Their experience is quite rare ....and conversely it is even more rare to have a problem with a G19, a G17 or a G23.

Again...agreed.

The additional research I am suggesting is for you to talk with instructors at some of the big shooting academies (Tactical Response, Thunder Ranch or Rangemaster, just to name a few) and ask which firearms they see crapping out during the classes they teach. These guys have trained thousands of students ........they know what a reliable handgun is.

That is an excellent idea actually!

I will respectfully suggest (yeah, that "respectful" part is rare for me) that you stop and think about the difference between a "range gun" that is super accurate and fun to shoot, and a self defense handgun that is expected to go bang every time.

Ask yourself why you carry a handgun ....the answer should be "Because someone may suddenly, unexpectedly and viciously try to kill, kidnap or rape (or all of the above) me or a family member." If this is your answer, then ask yourself why you would even consider carrying anything less than the most reliable handgun you can buy.

1911 for a good looking shooter. I wouldn't carry anything else in the "real world"...that is the reason that I carry a G23.

If on the other hand you really just need an attractive, gun (wood grips, blued steel, etc), then you definitely need a 1911.

Glocks are ugly. So are XD's, M&P's, HK's and some SIG's. Surprisingly, the ugly guns go bang when you pull the trigger. Go ask those instructors which guns puke most frequently in their classes. (Send me a PM if you'd like to get some email addresses or cell phone numbers for some of these guys).

Dude?! Golcks are sexy! I want a new gun and I thought that I needed to add a 1911 to the collection, since I have never owned or fired one. And I always take pleasure in firing & owning a new pistol. But because I have been spoiled by Glock, Sig and revolvers...I want a gun that fires when I pull the trigger, not one that I have to rack & squeeze after I hear click.

I had a Springfield Loaded that shed its plunger tube housing in less than 300 rounds. Individual comparisons are nice; but they do not show the big picture.

Dawg23's offer of contacting established trainers about what guns they have seen puke the most was done for a reason; like most of us who have seen more than just a few guns in a serious training environment, Dawg23 knows that the 1911 "platform" is at once very popular, and the most likely to have problems from a statistical standpoint. IOW, the number of 1911s that have problems compared to the number of total 1911s seen is much higher than any other major type.

This annoys stout 1911 fanboys. Sin loi... truth is truth.

I have read that the most reliable 1911 out of the box is a Springfield Armory Loaded. The TRP being the crown jewel of the bunch as far as "out the box 1911" is concerned. Of course, as you say...you had one that crapped out. That sucks. I am not crazy about having to send a gun in to the manufacture, but if I had to, I was told that the best place to have to send a firearm in would be to SA. Customer service is friggen fantastic.

Should I just wait and buy a fully tuned 1911 - $2500+ gun after shooting a few 1911's? Because I did have my eye on the new SA XD-M and would not be disappointed in purchasing that. But I wanted to see it in a .45!

Anyway, I do have a bit more stuff to digest now that I have read more good posts. Makes it all the more difficult. Sheesh.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

IOW, the number of 1911s that have problems compared to the number of total 1911s seen is much higher than any other major type.

This annoys stout 1911 fanboys. Sin loi... truth is truth.

.

In all fairness... There have been over 100 different companies/shops/whatevers making 1911's in the last 97 years...
To say nothing of parts.

How many companies have made Glocks?


That said, I have about $5,000 worth of 1911's...


And I'm wearing 2 Glocks right now!!!!

 

[Ske1etor]

LSP, I think you have an overblown and quite irrational opinion of the 1911 and its "Reliability" issues.

I understand that some people have problems with 1911's. Most of these problems are caused by people who can't leave well enough alone. The majority of the rest of the problems are caused by inexperience with the platform and finally that small percentage that is left is caused by the manufacturing process, out of spec parts and guns that are built too tight from the factory.

I understand that you are a rabid hi-cap poly-frame fanboy and that is fine but don't sit there and tell me that you have to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars and send 1911's back to the factory multiple times to get it to work. That is complete and utter crap.

 

[topgunz1]

well, having been around this board awhile, if LSP, Dawg, AND Nomad actually agree on something, it has to be the gospel truth.

 

[Ske1etor]

Fantastic. Carry a Glock if that is what works for you. It doesn't work for everyone. For me personally, the grip angle is all wrong. I aim four to five inches high at 25 yards when drawing from retention and firing quick pairs with a glock. I am used to a slim grip, therefore the only glock that I have ever handled that feels relatively comfortable to me is the 36, slimline single stack.

On the other hand, I am not anti-polymer. I own a Springfield XD-40 4" and find it to be a fantastic firearm. It has never had a failure, is decently accurate and has a better than average trigger. It still doesn't fit the bill for concealed carry as it is thick. The only time I would even attempt concealing would be during the winter time when I am wearing a cover garment such as a jacket or pull-over.



Nomad, the question is not how many companies have made variants of the 1911 in the past 97 years, the question is how many of those companies have built them to the original specs. The reliability problems come in when companies start tweaking specs to tighten the guns up. These days it seems that if the slide rattles when you shake it, the average 1911 consumer doesn't want it. They want a gun that is rock solid, not a single rattle and punches one inch groups at 25 yards. (Show me a Glock that can do this, and I will show you a glock that has reliability issues...)

 

[dawg23]

For me personally, the grip angle is all wrong. I aim four to five inches high at 25 yards when drawing from retention and firing quick pairs with a Glock.

I am used to a slim grip, therefore the only Glock that I have ever handled that feels relatively comfortable to me is the 36, slimline single stack.

I own a Springfield XD-40 4" and find it to be a fantastic firearm. It has never had a failure, is decently accurate and has a better than average trigger. It still doesn't fit the bill for concealed carry as it is thick. The only time I would even attempt concealing would be during the winter time when I am wearing a cover garment such as a jacket or pull-over.


They want a gun that is rock solid, not a single rattle and punches one inch groups at 25 yards. (Show me a Glock that can do this, and I will show you a Glock that has reliability issues...)

At the risk of adding comments to one of the (likely to become) interminable "1911 vs. Glock" threads .....which is one of the dumbest thing a person could do, other than supporting Obama ........... I'll say this.

1. The grip angle may be a real issue for you. I don't know what "drawing from retention" is, but the fact that you have a lot of repetitions would mean the grip angle has now become a factor. For most people, however, it's nothing more than an internet-derived excuse for saying they don't want a ...(fill in the blank with the name of a non-1911 handgun). Yeah, grip angles differ. But unless someone has 1000's of drawstroke repetitions, they should just look at their sights.

2. You are spot-on with the "rock solid, not a single rattle and punches one inch groups at 25 yards" comment. Which is exactly why they are lousy self-defense choices for most people. We don't need 1" groups at any distance for self defense, and we don't need the resultant reliability issues that you mention. For self defense we need a gun that will deliver a hand-sized group every time we shoot - clean or dirty.

3. As far as not trying to conceal an XD except in the winter wearing a jacket, you need to consult with "aroundlsu," or do some research. That's just silly. I carry a Glock 19 (oops, sorry ......there I go disclosing my biases) 24/7, 12 months of the year (only exception is while walking around inside my home). Winter time = jacket, sweater or windbreaker. Summer time = polo shirt or "Hawaiian shirt." No problem with a good belt and a good holster.

4. You mentioned people tinkering with the original design of the 1911. OK ....that's a problem. But if somebody wants to carry 7 rounds of ball ammo, that's their choice. I prefer 18 rounds of Ranger-T hollow points. (Of course if I were good enough to shoot double taps at 25 yards, I guess I would be comfortable with fewer rounds.)

5. As LSP972 has explained, "reliable" has nothing to do with your personal experience with your gun. The fact that I have fired well over 100,000 rounds through my G19 with no failures is also statistically insignificant. The fact that your neighbor or uncle may have had a perfectly reliable Kel-Tec means nothing to me.

Out-of-the-box reliability means that someone, or some agency (like the FBI, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, or some other state of Federal agency) has conducted rigorous, objective analytical testing to determine the mean failure rate or a firearm.

A more empirical approach would be to visit the 1911 forums and do a quick review of the owners who have had to send their guns back to the factory. And compare that to the reports on Glock or SIG or HK forums of people having to send their guns back.

Or, as I suggested to the OP, just talk to the top handgun trainers on this planet and ask the simple question: "which guns puke the most, and which puke the least in their classes."

Yeah, we know people mess with guns. Guess what .......people mess with Glocks, too. Custom triggers, night sights, mag extensions, extended slide stop levers, reduced power firing pin springs, competition trigger springs, steel guide rods, heavier/lighter guide rod springs, extended slide locks, $.25 trigger jobs ........etc, etc, etc. But guess what else.........they still work.

If somebody really wants a 1911, I say buy one. Or as many as you want. But the OP's quest was for a 1911 that will be as reliable as his Glock 23. My response, and that of several people, has been that he will be a very lucky individual to find an out-of-the-box 1911 that will meet that requirement. And if he finds one, it will not only be worth every penny he paid for it, it will probably worth a whole LOT more.

 

[Ske1etor]

1. The grip angle may be a real issue for you. I don't know what "drawing from retention".

Drawing from retention is the act of drawing a firearm from a holster and firing.

2. You are spot-on with the "rock solid, not a single rattle and punches one inch groups at 25 yards" comment.

Which is exactly why I pointed it out. Target guns are not combat guns. The companies that currently make 1911's are making them tight due to the customers wanting those tight groups. I understand that a firearm that tight is not going to be inherently reliable which is what I meant from that statement.

3. As far as not trying to conceal an XD except in the winter wearing a jacket, you need to consult with "aroundlsu," or do some research.

Research does nothing for me when I am attempting to conceal a 4" XD and it sticks out like a sore thumb. I can then switch over to my 5" 1911 and it disappears without changing holster position or clothing.

4. You mentioned people tinkering with the original design of the 1911. OK ....that's a problem. But if somebody wants to carry 7 rounds of ball ammo, that's their choice. I prefer 18 rounds of Ranger-T hollow points.

I carry 9 rounds of Federal HST. Plenty for me considering that most defensive shootings involve less than 3 rounds. If I go over my 9 rounds, I reach for my weak side and reload.

5. As LSP972 has explained, "reliable" has nothing to do with your personal experience with your gun. The fact that I have fired well over 100,000 rounds through my G19 with no failures is also statistically insignificant.

It is absolutely not statistically insignificant, if more people are having the same experience as you. Not all 1911's fail and not all of them are sent back to the factory. You hear about the failures more because people who are happy with their product don't complain... there is nothing to complain about.

Out-of-the-box reliability means that someone, or some agency (like the FBI, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, or some other state of Federal agency...

I absolutely agree. They also choose firearms for magazine capacity, ease of use and cost of repair.

A more empirical approach would be to visit the 1911 forums and do a quick review of the owners who have had to send their guns back to the factory. And compare that to the reports on Glock or SIG or HK forums of people having to send their guns back.

Then look into how many 1911's were made compared to Glock, Sig and HK. The answer... alot more. (Kimber alone produced more handguns than Glock and Sig combined in 2006... that is only one 1911 manufacturer.)

Or, as I suggested to the OP, just talk to the top handgun trainers on this planet and ask the simple question: "which guns puke the most, and which puke the least in their classes."

Then turn around and ask another handgun trainer and he will tell you the exact opposite.

Yeah, we know people mess with guns. Guess what .......people mess with Glocks, too. Custom triggers, night sights, mag extensions, extended slide stop levers, reduced power firing pin springs, competition trigger springs, steel guide rods, heavier/lighter guide rod springs, extended slide locks, $.25 trigger jobs ........etc, etc, etc. But guess what else.........they still work.

Custom triggers, night sights, mag extensions, slide stop levers, firing pin springs, trigger springs, guide rod springs, and $.25 trigger jobs are not what causes problems with the 1911. The problems come in when you tighten the barrel bushing down to the barrel, then tighten the bushing into the frame, then tighten the slide rails to mate with the frame rails without allowing so much as air to pass through. Tightening the actual mechanical operation of the firearm causes malfunctions, not buying a pretty new slide stop or throwing some meprolights on top...

If somebody really wants a 1911, I say buy one. Or as many as you want. But the OP's quest was for a 1911 that will be as reliable as his Glock 23. My response, and that of several people, has been that he will be a very lucky individual to find an out-of-the-box 1911 that will meet that requirement. And if he finds one, it will not only be worth every penny he paid for it, it will probably worth a whole LOT more.

I would also agree that he would be very lucky to find a 1911 that would work out of the box as well as a Glock 23. Most of the time 1911's require a breaking in period due to the tightness of the manufacturing process but to say that there is no way that a 1911 can be relied upon as a self defense weapon is more than silly, it completely goes against what has been proven in the last 97 years. It is a fully capable platform for those actually interested in learning the platform. Keep your point and click... Ill keep my 1911.

Oh, and just to fufill your dreams of being a part of a Glock vs. 1911 thread... here is a little picture you might enjoy...

 

[dawg23]

Drawing from retention is the act of drawing a firearm from a holster and firing.



Research does nothing for me



Kimber alone produced more handguns than Glock and Sig combined in 2006... that is only one 1911 manufacturer.


Then turn around and ask another handgun trainer and he will tell you the exact opposite.


I would also agree that he would be very lucky to find a 1911 that would work out of the box as well as a Glock 23. Most of the time 1911's require a breaking in period due to the tightness of the manufacturing process but to say that there is no way that a 1911 can be relied upon as a self defense weapon is more than silly, it completely goes against what has been proven in the last 97 years.

1.Thanks. I have only taken a few hundred hours of tactical/defensive pistol classes, and just never heard that term ("drawing from retention"). We train a lot on handgun retention techniques. And we train a lot on shooting from retention (but that has absolutely nothing to do with a holster).

2. I would love to see a source on your Kimber statistic. In the meantime, I will assume you got that from the same place from which most statistics are derived.

3. Insofar as "turn around and ask another handgun trainer," I'd be very interested in knowing how many of these folks you have trained under, and which ones I could contact to ask about their experiences with handgun malfunctions.

4. I don't think anyone said that the 1911 can't be a reliable self defense weapon. I know I didn't. (Maybe you found that along with your statistics). As you yourself have pointed out, it can become one, but probably won't arrive from the factory as one.

 

[Ske1etor]

2. I would love to see a source on your Kimber statistic. In the meantime, I will assume you got that from the same place from which most statistics are derived.

The word "Retention" is defined as: The act of retaining. You should have spent a couple hours thumbing through a dictionary...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/stats/index.htm

Was a bit off on the numbers... SigArms produced 75,000 or so... (Was going off the top of my head and remember Sig Sauer's numbers)

The point of the "Turn around and ask another" is basically saying that everyone has an opinion. You can dispute this fact if you want but the fact is that you like Glocks and I like 1911's so your argument would be fairly useless.

 

[asianpersuasion]

Don't mind me just passing thru

 

[dawg23]

The word "Retention" is defined as: The act of retaining. You should have spent a couple hours thumbing through a dictionary...

If your tactical handgun training has been derived from dictionaries, or from ATF, I would respectfully suggest that you engage the services of a respected trainer. Soon. They will, among other things, explain to you the use of the word "retention" in the context of self defense handguns.

There are a number of experienced shooters on this forum who can help point you in the right direction.