Army Needs a New Pistol...
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We all know that pistols are an excuse for e-5's and above not to have to tote around a rifle while on a FOB.
We don't need a new one.
How about better coms! More CYZ10's because com bubbas always have to go find them.
We don't need a new one.
How about better coms! More CYZ10's because com bubbas always have to go find them.
SpeedRacer
Well-Known Member
Realistically, based on what I've seen during the M4 "replacement" program and the camoflauge "replacement" program, this is what will happen:
The Army will spend about $20M dollars, some top brass will get steak and lobster and hummers courtesy of several pistol manufacturers, and the end result will be them spray painting the current M9s and calling it a day.
The Army will spend about $20M dollars, some top brass will get steak and lobster and hummers courtesy of several pistol manufacturers, and the end result will be them spray painting the current M9s and calling it a day.
^ Well said.
All of the special operations units I served in or with or around carried Glocks. 19, 17, 22, 34, 35. Even the MarSOF guys who had 1911s largely carried 19s. The 1911s aren't reliable enough and .45 ammo is hard to find. It's a 9mm World once you leave the United States.
Adopting the Glock 19 or 17 makes the most sense so it's unlikely to happen. I wouldn't be suprised to see the new HK or whatever the FNS in called now be selected. It also wouldn't shock me to see Beretta 92Gs and SiG 226s get run.
During my career (retired April 2013) I've deployed with 1911A1, 686, MK23, M11, P226, Tokarovs and a couple other types of pistols. I've never felt undergunned with those weapons, however, I prefer just about anything but a glock.
The M11 is surprisingly accurate for a compact pistol, its in the stock system and imho is a better pistol than the M9, however, what do I know after a 30 year Naval career with deployments to numerous shitholes over the years.
Happy 4th Mike!
The M11 is surprisingly accurate for a compact pistol, its in the stock system and imho is a better pistol than the M9, however, what do I know after a 30 year Naval career with deployments to numerous shitholes over the years.
Happy 4th Mike!
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From another forum:
Small caliber PDW's like the MP7 and P90 are niche weapons that have very narrow and specific roles to play.
Below are comments specifically on the MP7 by a combat experienced senior SOF NCO currently serving in the U.S. military:
*When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their **** and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.*
Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm:
*Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents. Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic. This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties. The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications.
Small caliber PDW's like the MP7 and P90 are niche weapons that have very narrow and specific roles to play.
Below are comments specifically on the MP7 by a combat experienced senior SOF NCO currently serving in the U.S. military:
*When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their **** and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.*
Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm:
*Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents. Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic. This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties. The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications.
I considered the cost. I would love to the price for the Army though. Large Army contracts would lower the price for everyone.
If you look at the numbers on 9mm Ball loaded to NATO Spec you see it's already pushing .357 Sig velocities.
In 2005 USASOC did a test for the first go around with JCP and as a sample:
124gr NATO Spec 9mm Ball(Winchester): 1250fps
125gr .357sig Ball(Winchester): 1300fps
We used a Glock 19 as the Test Piece. The War in Afghanistan highlighted the importance of logistical interoperability. I think over the next few years you will See much more emphasis on standardization not less. As boring as it may be I would be shocked if , with the exception of boutique special purpose cartridges, you saw the US Mil field small arms in anything but: 9mm, 5.56mm, 7.62, .300WM, .338LM, and .50BMG.
In 2005 USASOC did a test for the first go around with JCP and as a sample:
124gr NATO Spec 9mm Ball(Winchester): 1250fps
125gr .357sig Ball(Winchester): 1300fps
We used a Glock 19 as the Test Piece. The War in Afghanistan highlighted the importance of logistical interoperability. I think over the next few years you will See much more emphasis on standardization not less. As boring as it may be I would be shocked if , with the exception of boutique special purpose cartridges, you saw the US Mil field small arms in anything but: 9mm, 5.56mm, 7.62, .300WM, .338LM, and .50BMG.
Touche, a la joint stroke fighter.
They're going to go with the best gun in the universe, the FN Five Seven!
(this was just a joke, sorry)
My personal choice would be either the MP .45 or the Glock 21.
I would say the Glock 20, but there is no way in hell the bean counters would do something that logical.
My hand prefers the MP over the Glock, but I'm fine with either. I'd say the MP would fit more people's hands than the Glock.
(this was just a joke, sorry)
My personal choice would be either the MP .45 or the Glock 21.
I would say the Glock 20, but there is no way in hell the bean counters would do something that logical.
My hand prefers the MP over the Glock, but I'm fine with either. I'd say the MP would fit more people's hands than the Glock.
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Fact. Lol
Jan 08, 2013
Solicitation Number:
W15QKN-13-X-F007
Sources Sought
Synopsis:
Added: Jan 08, 2013 3:50 pm
The Program Manager for Soldier Weapons (PM SW) Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07860-5000, on behalf of the Program Executive Office Soldier, Fort Belvoir, VA 22060-5422, is assessing handgun technologies as well as production capacity of the US small arms industrial base. This announcement constitutes an official Request for Information (RFI).
To facilitate the assessment, the following information is requested:
1. Performance Improvement: Request information on potential improvements in handgun performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 50m, terminal performance, modularity, reliability and durability in all environments.
* The handgun and ammunition combination should, at a range of 50 meters, have a 90% or better probability of hit on a 4 inch circle when fired from a test fixture. It must maintain this throughout the life of the system. Systems are encouraged to utilize ergonomic and design improvements to minimize the effects of greater recoil energies, reducing the degradation of shooter-in-the-loop dispersion thereby improving the probability of hit.
* Modularity includes but is not limited to compatibility with accessory items to include tactical lights, lasers and sound suppressors. There is specific interest in designs that would be adaptable and/or adjustable to provide enhanced ergonomics that ensure 5th percentile female through 95th percentile male military personnel access to controls, such as the safety, magazine release, slide release and all other applicable controls. There is also interest in designs that offer these enhanced ergonomics while providing full ambidextrous controls.
* The handgun ammunition's terminal ballistics will be evaluated at ranges of 0-50m, over 0-14 inches of ballistic gelatin, to determine whether it provides more lethality when compared to the current U.S. Military M882 ammunition fired from the M9. Ammunition evaluated will meet international law of war conventions that bound current general purpose military ammunition. The Pistol evaluated must be capable of chamber pressures equal to or greater than SAAMI specification for the given cartridge, with prolonged reliability equal to or greater than the current M9. However, the ability to accommodate higher chamber pressures in excess of 20% over SAAMI spec without degradation of reliability is of specific interest.
* Reliability and Durability includes but is not limited to Mean Rounds between Stoppage (MRBS), Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) and Service Life. There is specific interest in designs with ratings of at least 2,000 rounds MRBS, 10,000 rounds MRBF and 35,000 round Service Life.
2. Production capacity estimates. Request information on minimum and maximum monthly production rates for a military handgun and associated ammunition as well as the lead times to achieve these production rates. This estimate should consider a US based production facility by the third year of deliveries. This capacity should be above and beyond any current production orders or current sales. If new facilities are planned or required, so state. A list of State and Federal agencies, as well as foreign governments, that have adopted the handgun should also be included.
3. Detailed descriptions of proposed handguns to include pictures, brochures, etc. that will convey the principles as well as general and specific capabilities behind the submissions. Physical dimensions, weight and safety features should be included.
4. Summarized and detailed test data from any certified test facility that addresses improvements in the areas proposed. Test operating procedures utilized and independent evaluations are also solicited.
5. Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) Estimate. Request estimated pricing for the submission based on the following quantities: 250,000 to 550,000 handguns.
This request for information (RFI) is for planning purposes only and should not be construed as a Request for Proposal or as an obligation on the part of the Government to acquire any services or hardware. Your response to this RFI will be treated as information only. No entitlement to payment of direct or indirect costs or charges by the Government will arise as a result of contractor submission of responses to this announcement or Government use of such information. No funds have been authorized, appropriated, or received for this effort. The information provided may be used by the Army in developing its Acquisition Strategy, Performance Work Statement and Performance Specification. Interested parties are responsible for adequately marking proprietary or competition sensitive information contained in their response. The Government does not intend to award a contract on the basis of this RFI or to otherwise pay for the information submitted in response to same. The information provided herein is subject to change and in no way binds the Government to pursue any course of action described herein. The U.S. Government is not obligated to notify respondents of the results of this survey.
SUBMISSION INFORMATION:
Interested offerors should submit the information annotated above, in hard copy, by March 11, 2013 to: Army Contracting Command, Acquisition Center, ACC-NJ-SW, Bldg 9, Attn: Gloria Thoguluva, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07805. Electronic submissions may be sent to gloria.thoguluva.civ@mail.mil. Submissions shall not exceed 25 pages (8 x 11 inches), not including test data. Font shall be 12 pitch with one inch borders. All information is to be submitted at no cost or obligation to the Government. All information marked {Proprietary to company name} will not be disclosed outside of the Department of Defense.
Interested firms should also provide their address, point-of-contact with telephone number, e-mail address, and type of business (i.e. Small Business, Large Business, 8a Small Business, Hubzone Small Business, Service Disabled Veteran Owned Small Business).
NO TELEPHONE INQUIRIES WILL BE ACCEPTED. The Government will accept written inquiries or information at gloria.thoguluva.civ@mail.mil. The documentation provided will not be returned.
Contracting Office Address:
ACC - New Jersey, Center for Contracting and Commerce, Building 10 Phipps RD, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806-500
Point of Contact(s):
Gloria Thoguluva, 9737245366
Solicitation Number:
W15QKN-13-X-F007
Sources Sought
Synopsis:
Added: Jan 08, 2013 3:50 pm
The Program Manager for Soldier Weapons (PM SW) Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07860-5000, on behalf of the Program Executive Office Soldier, Fort Belvoir, VA 22060-5422, is assessing handgun technologies as well as production capacity of the US small arms industrial base. This announcement constitutes an official Request for Information (RFI).
To facilitate the assessment, the following information is requested:
1. Performance Improvement: Request information on potential improvements in handgun performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 50m, terminal performance, modularity, reliability and durability in all environments.
* The handgun and ammunition combination should, at a range of 50 meters, have a 90% or better probability of hit on a 4 inch circle when fired from a test fixture. It must maintain this throughout the life of the system. Systems are encouraged to utilize ergonomic and design improvements to minimize the effects of greater recoil energies, reducing the degradation of shooter-in-the-loop dispersion thereby improving the probability of hit.
* Modularity includes but is not limited to compatibility with accessory items to include tactical lights, lasers and sound suppressors. There is specific interest in designs that would be adaptable and/or adjustable to provide enhanced ergonomics that ensure 5th percentile female through 95th percentile male military personnel access to controls, such as the safety, magazine release, slide release and all other applicable controls. There is also interest in designs that offer these enhanced ergonomics while providing full ambidextrous controls.
* The handgun ammunition's terminal ballistics will be evaluated at ranges of 0-50m, over 0-14 inches of ballistic gelatin, to determine whether it provides more lethality when compared to the current U.S. Military M882 ammunition fired from the M9. Ammunition evaluated will meet international law of war conventions that bound current general purpose military ammunition. The Pistol evaluated must be capable of chamber pressures equal to or greater than SAAMI specification for the given cartridge, with prolonged reliability equal to or greater than the current M9. However, the ability to accommodate higher chamber pressures in excess of 20% over SAAMI spec without degradation of reliability is of specific interest.
* Reliability and Durability includes but is not limited to Mean Rounds between Stoppage (MRBS), Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) and Service Life. There is specific interest in designs with ratings of at least 2,000 rounds MRBS, 10,000 rounds MRBF and 35,000 round Service Life.
2. Production capacity estimates. Request information on minimum and maximum monthly production rates for a military handgun and associated ammunition as well as the lead times to achieve these production rates. This estimate should consider a US based production facility by the third year of deliveries. This capacity should be above and beyond any current production orders or current sales. If new facilities are planned or required, so state. A list of State and Federal agencies, as well as foreign governments, that have adopted the handgun should also be included.
3. Detailed descriptions of proposed handguns to include pictures, brochures, etc. that will convey the principles as well as general and specific capabilities behind the submissions. Physical dimensions, weight and safety features should be included.
4. Summarized and detailed test data from any certified test facility that addresses improvements in the areas proposed. Test operating procedures utilized and independent evaluations are also solicited.
5. Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) Estimate. Request estimated pricing for the submission based on the following quantities: 250,000 to 550,000 handguns.
This request for information (RFI) is for planning purposes only and should not be construed as a Request for Proposal or as an obligation on the part of the Government to acquire any services or hardware. Your response to this RFI will be treated as information only. No entitlement to payment of direct or indirect costs or charges by the Government will arise as a result of contractor submission of responses to this announcement or Government use of such information. No funds have been authorized, appropriated, or received for this effort. The information provided may be used by the Army in developing its Acquisition Strategy, Performance Work Statement and Performance Specification. Interested parties are responsible for adequately marking proprietary or competition sensitive information contained in their response. The Government does not intend to award a contract on the basis of this RFI or to otherwise pay for the information submitted in response to same. The information provided herein is subject to change and in no way binds the Government to pursue any course of action described herein. The U.S. Government is not obligated to notify respondents of the results of this survey.
SUBMISSION INFORMATION:
Interested offerors should submit the information annotated above, in hard copy, by March 11, 2013 to: Army Contracting Command, Acquisition Center, ACC-NJ-SW, Bldg 9, Attn: Gloria Thoguluva, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07805. Electronic submissions may be sent to gloria.thoguluva.civ@mail.mil. Submissions shall not exceed 25 pages (8 x 11 inches), not including test data. Font shall be 12 pitch with one inch borders. All information is to be submitted at no cost or obligation to the Government. All information marked {Proprietary to company name} will not be disclosed outside of the Department of Defense.
Interested firms should also provide their address, point-of-contact with telephone number, e-mail address, and type of business (i.e. Small Business, Large Business, 8a Small Business, Hubzone Small Business, Service Disabled Veteran Owned Small Business).
NO TELEPHONE INQUIRIES WILL BE ACCEPTED. The Government will accept written inquiries or information at gloria.thoguluva.civ@mail.mil. The documentation provided will not be returned.
Contracting Office Address:
ACC - New Jersey, Center for Contracting and Commerce, Building 10 Phipps RD, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806-500
Point of Contact(s):
Gloria Thoguluva, 9737245366
