Atlanta PD orders 2,300 Gen 4 Glock 22 Pistols.

[JBP55]

Actually Glock offers agencies that have S&W M&P's brand new Glocks for the M&P's for free. Then Glock makes more money selling the M&P's it's a money making by Glock selling a superior product!

 

[Leadfoot]

Actually Glock offers agencies that have S&W M&P's brand new Glocks for the M&P's for free. Then Glock makes more money selling the M&P's it's a money making by Glock selling a superior product!

So what you're saying is that M&P is a superior product to Glock?

In their current stock form, they are NOT. They do have the potential to be, but with the trigger issues, extractor issues and spotty accuracy in 9mm guns, they aren't.

 

[SpeedRacer]

The M&P's honeymoon phase has worn off and a lot of people are realizing they are not the wondergun they thought it was. Not that Glock's have been perfect the last few years either...

 

[JNieman]

What are the issues? Is there a convenient synopsis that doesn't require me chasing down several threads on several different forums hard to efficiently get to on google search resutls?

After installing the Apex DCAEK, I've not really experience any problems. Granted I'm not shooting clay pigeons at 100 yards, but the accuracy hasn't held me back that I'm aware of with my 9mm.

 

[Leadfoot]

I don't know if theres a specific thread that lists them all, I'm just going on what I've read over the past year or so.

And having to add an Apex trigger which boils down to having to spend another $100 on top of what you spend on the gun is ridiculous to me.

Why doesn't S&W just license the Apex and put it in there from the factory, or actually fix the need for it to begin with?

 

[in625shooter]

So what you're saying is that M&P is a superior product to Glock?

In their current stock form, they are NOT. They do have the potential to be, but with the trigger issues, extractor issues and spotty accuracy in 9mm guns, they aren't.

Maybe I should have put it in purple as I was being somewhat sarcastic but that being said I have 10,000 rounds through my M&P and another 1,000 through my compact. I also owned 2 Glocks which worked fine as well. I am involved as a firearms instructor and been in LE since the mid 1980's so I have seen more than a couple firearms transitions. If you have followed any of the issues with with 4th Gen Glocks they have a less than stellar record which Glocks honeymoon was over long befor S&W's was. NM state, Indiana State (ISP had issue with Glock 22's going from Beretta's Glock would not fix. ISP went with the 9mm 17's for about 5-6 years tried the GEN 4 45 acp 21's and several were FTF/FTE so now G17's reissued while 45 cal SIG 227's are being appropriated) and several municipality agencies drop Glock and go to S&W or SIG more so than Glock gets contracts. Glock is still doing a brisk business but there is one thing no firearms manufacturer can outlast. That is politics/likes of the LE administrators that make the choice. Several times a new firearm being adopted means nothing more than someone put in charge has a favorite handgun manufacturer they favor over the current one.

However what I see as an instructor is the numbers of Glocks and M&P's being even in numbers on the range I see more Glock issues than M&P's. That holds just as true for IPSC matches where the M&P is slightly agove the Glock in numbers for Production class followed by the Springfield XD.

While we all have are favorite "pet" product/manufacturer for one reason or another There is no "perfect" firearm and no firearm is "perfection" especially when mass produced all have there lemons from time to time. No different than the Ford vs Chevy. They both have had good running vehicles and not so great running vehicles.

 

[Leadfoot]

Hey, I'm an S&W fan, have been for years. I still think the 3rd Gen Smith autos were some of the most well built, reliable guns made. I own several of them and several S&W revolvers.

I just don't think the M&P is a better gun than the Glock.

Just going by the number of parts (or lack of), the Glock is a very simple machine to operate, diagnose and repair. I think that is the main reason it has been so successful.

 

[in625shooter]

Hey, I'm an S&W fan, have been for years. I still think the 3rd Gen Smith autos were some of the most well built, reliable guns made. I own several of them and several S&W revolvers.

I just don't think the M&P is a better gun than the Glock.

Just going by the number of parts (or lack of), the Glock is a very simple machine to operate, diagnose and repair. I think that is the main reason it has been so successful.

I hear you, I just feel that the so called trigger issues some folks cry about on the M&P are they are either to much OCD or perhaps they got a MASS compliant gun or something. I have owned two other M&P's and all of them were fine (I sold the 45 to get my Daughter the compact M&P 9mm) Then bought another for myself.

I'm just glad we as consumers and departments have the choices we do now. I remember when the only choice was a K,L or N frame S&W, Ruger or Colt revolver and for autos a 1911, Browning Hi Power or S&W 39/59 series. But a lot of time personal preference gets in the way of police adoption. that's what happened to ISP. The firearms guru and new SUP at the time was a Glock fanatic and after the 40 and the 45 debacle years later new Governor = new Sup + SIG 45's that performed a lot better and was actually picked because it finished their tests and not picked because it was a favorite child of someone. Once in a while that an unbiased selection is made!

 

[JNieman]

No, there is absolutely no respectful argument one can make in support of the factory M&P trigger. None. It's garbage. Unless, you know, you don't think you should be able to shoot from the reset, and stuff. I've not experienced a single stock M&P with more than a couple boxes of ammo through it that had a discernible (tactile OR audible) reset. Having to slap the trigger from full extension is pretty shitty. Others complain about grittiness or some feeling in the takeup or some spongy feeling in the break or something... I don't care much about all that, personally, on a gun like this. But being unable to detect when the trigger has reset is a deal breaker 100% to me.

I'd have switched to Glock if I didn't have so many well used M&P9 mags and an M&P frame that I've done a chop job to that I wouldn't be able to recoup enough money from.

I've seen some chatter about barrel twist being wrong, or something, for some bullet weights of ammo, but haven't experienced it myself. My M&P9 seems to shoot my heavier SD ammo better, and the 115gr blaster ammo shoots well enough, and so I'm pleased.

 

[Jack]

No, there is absolutely no respectful argument one can make in support of the factory M&P trigger. None. It's garbage. Unless, you know, you don't think you should be able to shoot from the reset, and stuff. I've not experienced a single stock M&P with more than a couple boxes of ammo through it that had a discernible (tactile OR audible) reset. Having to slap the trigger from full extension is pretty shitty. Others complain about grittiness or some feeling in the takeup or some spongy feeling in the break or something... I don't care much about all that, personally, on a gun like this. But being unable to detect when the trigger has reset is a deal breaker 100% to me.

I'd have switched to Glock if I didn't have so many well used M&P9 mags and an M&P frame that I've done a chop job to that I wouldn't be able to recoup enough money from.

I've seen some chatter about barrel twist being wrong, or something, for some bullet weights of ammo, but haven't experienced it myself. My M&P9 seems to shoot my heavier SD ammo better, and the 115gr blaster ammo shoots well enough, and so I'm pleased.

Bo gray(sin-ster) wrote an article about the twist a while ago, apparently they used the same ratio as is used for 40. If I remember correctly he said the larger surface area making contact with the grooves makes SD ammo more tolerant of the slower twist rate.

 

[JNieman]

Cool, I'll search that out. If I know specifically what to look for, I might see if I can replicate the discrepancy in my gun. If I find it enough of a difference, it may be the justification I need to buy a new barrel :P I can relegate the current barrel to backup duty or something. It's probably 7k rounds into it's life so... I dunno, I could probably come up with a few other reasons to "justify" the purchase haha.

 

[in625shooter]

No, there is absolutely no respectful argument one can make in support of the factory M&P trigger. None. It's garbage. Unless, you know, you don't think you should be able to shoot from the reset, and stuff. I've not experienced a single stock M&P with more than a couple boxes of ammo through it that had a discernible (tactile OR audible) reset. Having to slap the trigger from full extension is pretty shitty. Others complain about grittiness or some feeling in the takeup or some spongy feeling in the break or something... I don't care much about all that, personally, on a gun like this. But being unable to detect when the trigger has reset is a deal breaker 100% to me.

I'd have switched to Glock if I didn't have so many well used M&P9 mags and an M&P frame that I've done a chop job to that I wouldn't be able to recoup enough money from.

I've seen some chatter about barrel twist being wrong, or something, for some bullet weights of ammo, but haven't experienced it myself. My M&P9 seems to shoot my heavier SD ammo better, and the 115gr blaster ammo shoots well enough, and so I'm pleased.

JNieman, respectfully let me articulate my point. I bought my first 2 M&P's in 2007 then one for my daughter in 2009 and a compact for myself in the fall of 2012 and they all have an excellent trigger. They run just as fast as a Glock, but fast is sometimes too fast. Let me explain, On the job I have to teach a both traditional Double Action Only auto that has a trigger like a revolver. I am a revolver guy at heart myself and that's my first love in handguns and what I was first issued and started out on back in the mid 1980's. As far as the trigger the M&P is nowhere near comparable to a 10 LB traditional DAO trigger but folks can make those DAO guns run just fine as well. As far as mastering a DAO or revolver trigger It all boils down to prior programing and attention spans. I have seen it since the "rookies" that come to my agency from another agency that only used Glocks or striker fired variety pistols and that's the only gun they have used (new generation) they have BIG ISSUES trying to adapt to the DAO guns we issue. As some old wheel heads of us had a learning curve when in the early 1990's we went from DAO revolvers to the DA/SA auto's as well.

So this whole hoopla most make over how bad supposedly the M&P trigger is are splitting hairs, they are generally the same that bemoan the DA revolvers as well. If someone doesn't like a particular model that's fine but to put a blanket statement against it because one can not "learn" the trigger is short minded. Anyone knows even DAO revolvers can be ran just as fast as a Glock minus the round count look at Jerry Miculek or even your average ICORE shooter and it's there to see.

As an instructor one thing I see all the time that is a downfall of the Glock, M&P XD etc is sure average people can shoot them fast but they out run the sights which does you zero good. Yes they are all good but you have to learn that trigger as well so you don't outrun your sights.

 

[JNieman]

I'm nothing like Jerry Miculek. I need a semi-auto I can shoot from reset.

How are people 'outrunning the sights' ? That sounds more like recoil management issues and shooting before the gun settles back on target.

I can see how the M&P can be seen to have a good trigger compared to a DAO revolver, though, yes. I guess in some contexts the M&P has a good trigger; but compared to other guns in it's "class" I believe it is untrue. I've got only several thousand through 2 M&P 9mm guns, but it doesn't take long to assess the trigger.

 

[in625shooter]

I'm nothing like Jerry Miculek. I need a semi-auto I can shoot from reset.

How are people 'outrunning the sights' ? That sounds more like recoil management issues and shooting before the gun settles back on target.

I can see how the M&P can be seen to have a good trigger compared to a DAO revolver, though, yes. I guess in some contexts the M&P has a good trigger; but compared to other guns in it's "class" I believe it is untrue. I've got only several thousand through 2 M&P 9mm guns, but it doesn't take long to assess the trigger.

What I mean by out running the sights is that with Glocks, M&P's etc a lot of shooters are able to run the trigger faster than they can get the sights lined up on the target. This is more noticeable when you have multiple targets like on a stress course or any typical IPSC/IDPA match where some are trying for the speed with movement and multiple targets where they have to move the gun from one target to the next. Because of that easy trigger the bang goes off before the sights are lined up where they are suppose to.

As far as reset even with M&P's you still get that reset without letting the trigger all the way forward or removing the finger off the trigger. No need to reclaim real estate you already own on the trigger, Even on wheelguns it can be done.

 

[JNieman]

That's what I thought you meant by outrunning the sights. There's a simple solution to that, which is to not pull the trigger until you're aiming at what you're supposed to be aiming at. What you indicate is a problem, I call a benefit. It means the trigger is not forcing me to shoot slower than I am otherwise able. If you're shooting a gun as fast as the trigger allows you to, and the sights are on target by the time you manage to pull that trigger again; chances are that trigger is handicapping your ability.

On a stock M&P, the reset does occur before the trigger is fully let out, however there is no actual way to know this, and despite my best efforts, a couple thousand repeitions, dry firing practice, as well as professional training, there were a great many times I pulled the trigger before it was reset, resulting in failure I won't tolerate. Instead, I installed aftermarket springs and parts and regained what any semiauto striker fired pistol should have; a tactile reset I can feel and get feedback from, to know that my trigger is ready to fire again, as well as a bit of a click to help it bump forward past the reset, to minimize the possibility of short stroking the trigger, which the stock parts lacked.

 

[in625shooter]

That's what I thought you meant by outrunning the sights. There's a simple solution to that, which is to not pull the trigger until you're aiming at what you're supposed to be aiming at. What you indicate is a problem, I call a benefit. It means the trigger is not forcing me to shoot slower than I am otherwise able. If you're shooting a gun as fast as the trigger allows you to, and the sights are on target by the time you manage to pull that trigger again; chances are that trigger is handicapping your ability.

On a stock M&P, the reset does occur before the trigger is fully let out, however there is no actual way to know this, and despite my best efforts, a couple thousand repeitions, dry firing practice, as well as professional training, there were a great many times I pulled the trigger before it was reset, resulting in failure I won't tolerate. Instead, I installed aftermarket springs and parts and regained what any semiauto striker fired pistol should have; a tactile reset I can feel and get feedback from, to know that my trigger is ready to fire again, as well as a bit of a click to help it bump forward past the reset, to minimize the possibility of short stroking the trigger, which the stock parts lacked.

With your solution, In a perfect world sure. The issue is while the sights are somewhat "on" target the shooter is still moving slightly and the shooter is not all the way settled down combine that with the easy trigger and a dab of adrenaline you have outer hits if not misses. For some reason slightly heavier triggers seem to make the shooter focus a little more on what they are doing and "settle down". glocks and M&P's while accurate are combat weapons not marksmanship weapons. Point and shoot. Also as crazy as this sounds I tried a Glock with an 8lb NY trigger and I liked that better than the 5 lb standard. To each their own.

Don't get me wrong Glocks are good guns. Most agencies that use them are VERY proficient at them as are the average Joe that picks them. Like I said I'm glad we have the choices we do now. I remember back in the day we only had the a couple revolvers and 1911, S&W 39/59 and Hi Power were it. Speaking of a Hi Power with the mag safety in is one of the hardest guns to figure out on the reset for me. I could never hear or feel the sear reset. No wonder everywhere took the safety out of those things back in the day!