Brass says troops willing to take pay cuts BS!

[Hitman]

Don't they have to pay for TriCare now anyway?

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Yes.

 

[SeventhSon]

Yeah, this aint the military retirement that my Grandfather received. Hey, you're sick? Just go to base medical and we'll get you fixed up. Nope, now they have to pay for that benefit that they earned, just like everyone else who didnt have to go into harms way and/or leave their family for extended periods of time. I sacrificed a fraction of what some of these guys have given when I was in the military, but I was still away from my family more in 4 years than most people spend away from their family in their entire career in the civilian world. Not complaining, just sayin. When you think about what some of these guys miss in 20+ years (birth of their kids, birthdays, holidays, first steps, school events, kids baseball games, etc) it really isnt such a "good deal" after all. Case in point, a buddy of mine just retired from the Navy after 23 years as a Senior Chief. He's working at Home Depot to cover the bills. Yeah, he could have worked in the civilian sector of the job he had in the military but he was sick of leaving his family for months on end. That E-8 retirement doesnt go as far as one might think.

 

[JadeRaven]

Guys who "fly desk" in todays mil oftne find themselves off the desk and in harms way.

Good point.

When you think about what some of these guys miss in 20+ years (birth of their kids, birthdays, holidays, first steps, school events, kids baseball games, etc) it really isnt such a "good deal" after all.

I agree.

 

[CatCam]

I'll weigh in on this with my $.02 -- not my intention to ruffle feathers but I'm probably going to with some comments/facts.

I remember way back when - Service members had to bum rides or hitchhike to get around - bases were "primitive" to what you see now and their base pay was paltry to say the least!

Military pay nowadays is good deal. I roll my eyes when I hear people state that E-3's are getting paid below the poverty level. Please - give me a break. Most E-1's and E-2's are still in training (school) and are fed and housed at government expense -- while they learn their job. Then as experience and time goes on they get promoted and are paid progressively more. As they finish school and get assigned to a permanent base they get free housing/utilities OR get a BAH allowance (their choice). BTW, BAH allowance is tax free AND FYI is $1,245/month for an E-1 to E-4 w/family, for E-5 $1,328, E-6 $1,665, E-7 $1,707, E-8 $1,752 and E-9 $1,875.
http://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/site/bahCalc.cfm

Now let's factor in the other benefits - 30 days of annual leave, sick leave, Free Medical & Dental, Free G.I. Bill, Base MWR (gym, pool, tennis, racquetball, auto hobby shop, bowling alley) -- daycare, schools on base, Youth recreation center, numerous kids playgrounds, Commissary, Base Exchange, reduced rate life insurance (SGLI), free college courses, etc, etc. Cost savings on Auto Insurance and all other "perks" for being in the military, and let's not forget retirement in 20 years with 1/2 your base pay and TriCare medical (yes, cost involved and not perfect).

So, let's look at a few examples - E-3 with 3 years experience - base pay is $2,035/mo = $24,420/yr. Now lets add in the BAH of $1,329/yr (tax free) = $15,948/yr. This TOTALS - $40,368/year + all the benefits above.
http://milpaychart.com/2014-military-pay-chart/

So - say this military member is a trained as an air traffic controller (one of the many cool military jobs). On the outside world they would have to pay for their own schooling and try to get a job. In the military - they get a job and get the schooling free while getting paid. When they get out they have marketable skills that were essentially free! Good deal!

Here is the drawback, you may be called upon to defend the country against all enemies, foreign and domestic -- Our local LEO's do the same thing day in and day out for a hell of a lot less in pay and nowhere near the benefits. If I were the Sec of Defense I would propose that if the member was going into a true combat zone (not Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia) they would be fairly compensated for this duty - not the measly $225/month extra they get now.

Somebody mentioned the Federal employees -- and yes I agree many agencies are bloated and you have some useless people in some Federal positions -- but Military pay unlike other Federal pay has received Cost of living increases every year. Federal employees have not -- in fact this year was the first year Fed employees got a raise (a whopping 1%) since 2009.

So, times are lean and they have to take a cut - yes it sucks but it is easily manageable. I don't think it will hurt recruiting and I can tell you active duty members won't jump ship because of this "cut" in pay.

Like I said - just my $.02 - don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers.

 

[Dishonored]

I'll weigh in on this with my $.02 -- not my intention to ruffle feathers but I'm probably going to with some comments/facts.

I remember way back when - Service members had to bum rides or hitchhike to get around - bases were "primitive" to what you see now and their base pay was paltry to say the least!

Military pay nowadays is good deal. I roll my eyes when I hear people state that E-3's are getting paid below the poverty level. Please - give me a break. Most E-1's and E-2's are still in training (school) and are fed and housed at government expense -- while they learn their job. Then as experience and time goes on they get promoted and are paid progressively more. As they finish school and get assigned to a permanent base they get free housing/utilities OR get a BAH allowance (their choice). BTW, BAH allowance is tax free AND FYI is $1,245/month for an E-1 to E-4 w/family, for E-5 $1,328, E-6 $1,665, E-7 $1,707, E-8 $1,752 and E-9 $1,875.
http://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/site/bahCalc.cfm

Now let's factor in the other benefits - 30 days of annual leave, sick leave, Free Medical & Dental, Free G.I. Bill, Base MWR (gym, pool, tennis, racquetball, auto hobby shop, bowling alley) -- daycare, schools on base, Youth recreation center, numerous kids playgrounds, Commissary, Base Exchange, reduced rate life insurance (SGLI), free college courses, etc, etc. Cost savings on Auto Insurance and all other "perks" for being in the military, and let's not forget retirement in 20 years with 1/2 your base pay and TriCare medical (yes, cost involved and not perfect).

So, let's look at a few examples - E-3 with 3 years experience - base pay is $2,035/mo = $24,420/yr. Now lets add in the BAH of $1,329/yr (tax free) = $15,948/yr. This TOTALS - $40,368/year + all the benefits above.
http://milpaychart.com/2014-military-pay-chart/

So - say this military member is a trained as an air traffic controller (one of the many cool military jobs). On the outside world they would have to pay for their own schooling and try to get a job. In the military - they get a job and get the schooling free while getting paid. When they get out they have marketable skills that were essentially free! Good deal!

Here is the drawback, you may be called upon to defend the country against all enemies, foreign and domestic -- Our local LEO's do the same thing day in and day out for a hell of a lot less in pay and nowhere near the benefits. If I were the Sec of Defense I would propose that if the member was going into a true combat zone (not Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia) they would be fairly compensated for this duty - not the measly $225/month extra they get now.

Somebody mentioned the Federal employees -- and yes I agree many agencies are bloated and you have some useless people in some Federal positions -- but Military pay unlike other Federal pay has received Cost of living increases every year. Federal employees have not -- in fact this year was the first year Fed employees got a raise (a whopping 1%) since 2009.

So, times are lean and they have to take a cut - yes it sucks but it is easily manageable. I don't think it will hurt recruiting and I can tell you active duty members won't jump ship because of this "cut" in pay.

Like I said - just my $.02 - don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers.

Are you a service member?

 

[madwabbit]

Yeah, thats a typical misconception and i'll admit it looks grand on paper. To get your butt out of your parent's basement, it IS a great deal.

However, lets look at actually raising a family and retiring from the us military:

1) To use that free college, you need your commanders permission. If you have an upcoming PCS or TDY, the answer is "no." Many don't get the ability to use their GI while active. Hell its often passed on to children or relatives.
2) Tricare isn't free.
3) BAH is provided if you are married or have dependents only; its not a "you're in so you get it" thing.
4) Talk to a few guys that get medically discharged that find that their experience and military provided job training is irrelevant to the private sector, now they are a 27 year old with on the job training competing for jobs against college graduates with experience.
4a) Like any college grad will tell you, it takes more than a certification or "degree" to land you a job. Just because the USAF said you're an air traffic controller doesn't mean you'll be hired as one.

5) know anyone that works off shore? they get paid handsomely because of the dangerous nature of the position and frequency of time away from their families. Until they've been on that rig for 12-24 months straight or been woken up by mortars, I don't think its even a comparison.

Now, should we compare the average 5-year experienced off-shore (position) against an E-4 in terms of salary, family life, and retirement capability?

and another thing... when did 40 grand a year become "great pay"?

what's the price of missing every child's first step, first words, first full season of sports, first year of school, their wedding, or telling your 8yr old that "maybe next year you'll get to spend christmas and birthday" with them? All that for your somewhat-inflated 40k a year?

**** poor pay compared to quality of life if you ask me. Hell I've got employees with 90% of those benefits, not far from that salary, that have a high school diploma and answer phones in an air conditioned office everyday. They never miss their sons baseball practice, let alone a holiday or major celebration.

Quality of Life VS Salary... our troops are underpaid. just my .02

 

[CatCam]

Are you a service member?

Retired reserve - 22 years - 2 all expense paid trips to Iraq.

 

[CatCam]

Yeah, thats a typical misconception and i'll admit it looks grand on paper. To get your butt out of your parent's basement, it IS a great deal.

However, lets look at actually raising a family and retiring from the us military:

1) To use that free college, you need your commanders permission. If you have an upcoming PCS or TDY, the answer is "no." Many don't get the ability to use their GI while active. Hell its often passed on to children or relatives.
2) Tricare isn't free.
3) BAH is provided if you are married or have dependents only; its not a "you're in so you get it" thing.
4) Talk to a few guys that get medically discharged that find that their experience and military provided job training is irrelevant to the private sector, now they are a 27 year old with on the job training competing for jobs against college graduates with experience.

5) know anyone that works off shore? they get paid handsomely because of the dangerous nature of the position and frequency of time away from their families. Until they've been on that rig for 12-24 months straight or been woken up by mortars, I don't think its even a comparison.

Now, should we compare the average 5-year experienced off-shore (position) against an E-4 in terms of salary, family life, and retirement capability?

1. Yes - correct - but in the civilian world while you work you may have to put off college here and there based upon work, etc.
2. I stated Tricare had a cost to it. You ever see what COBRA costs are for health insurance? TriCare is still a good deal.
3. Incorrect - BAH is for serviceman with or without dependents. It is the serviceman's option to live on base or off -unless he got in some kind of trouble and the commander mandates that he live on post.
4. I also know a few guys that were medically discharged and make out like a bandit. It is hit or miss.
5. Offshore work is a risk as well but it is an free market that makes lots of money for their offshore company. I really don't think many (if any) servicemen are jumping ship to work in the oilfield. There are certain military jobs that are much more of a family burden and of imminent risk than others and I do think these positions should be compensated more than they are now. BUT their are also military jobs that are 100% cush - and these should be privatized because they are not combative in nature. Examples are Medical (except for corpsman or MASH type personnel), Religious, Legal, Administrative, public affairs, weather, and the list goes on and on.

 

[madwabbit]

Maybe it differs by branch, but in the USAF you do not receive BAH until E-4 OR until you have dependents at any rank. You "earn" your right to live off base. Theres a reason its called "the airman dorms" and not "the sergeant dorms"

this advice valid as of 2005... if it changed then im behind the times.

and fyi- 40k a year is a crap salary for any technical position, let alone for some of the highly specialized ones in the military. remember that an E-3 makes what an E-3 makes- doesn't matter if its intel with a top secret security clearance or maintenance painting fences all day. I guess if you're one of the guys that physically qualified past MEPS but was too uneducated/bombed the asvab, then 40k a year is pretty good.

I consider 40k a year entry level for any technical position, and I back this statement up with the fact that I love to hire retired vets. Dont hesitate to pm me.

 

[Hitman]

You're not in the Oil/Gas Business are you?

 

[CatCam]

Madwabbit - First of all I laugh my @ss off every time I see your Avatar! Good discussion here with lots of valid points.
I cannot deny what you have said but I know (relative of mine) in the Air Force living in Tucson (Davis Mothan AFB) receiving full BAH back in the 90's. I could be wrong but I think he was a Senior Airman at the time. He worked on A-10's as a MLMF (Missle Loader).

My example used an E-3 as they are still considered "entry level" and have not had enough experience to be considered a journeyman or expert in their field. The military pays them roughly $40K if you add in the benefits and BAH but still the same if they live on base because they do not have a rent or house note. In Air Force when they become a Technical Sergeant (E-6) they have become a true technician - a E-6 with 10 years makes a base of pay of right under $40K and a BAH of $1,665/mo so added he is making $60K plus benefits out the yazoo! Not too bad for a job where you don't have to make a profit for the company!

 

[madwabbit]

If he was receiving BAH at E-4 he was either married or had a child? OR, t his is a possibility: the dorms were full and he had the "highest dorm rank" and received a waiver to live off base. I've seen that happen especially if he was about to test for Ssgt. or something.

Like I said, early on those guys have it pretty good considering that the free tech training is valuable as well and that without it they'd be making squat in comparison. It's the 4-6 year enlisted guys that get screwed. They get out to find out that their expertise has a minimal field of hire, and that the private sector still considers them grossly under-qualified for a position. If you ride the full 22, its not a bad deal. If you're smart enough to get a degree before you get out, all the better.

The smartest "use" of military benefits are the guys I see that are half-way through college, buried in loan debt, and go into OTS. They get loan forgiveness, finish their degree, then give Uncle Sam a few years. Afterwards they go back into the private sector with no loans and a fresh degree, with "Retired Veteran" on their resume, with a GI for their child and USAA for their family.

But to say that the entire armed services community is overpaid to the point that they need pay cuts? Audacious imo

I'll go back to start with the politicians, then reduce all federal employees to scale.

and by the way; If you choose (or have) to live on base, you forfeit BAH entirely. Of course, you still have a place to stay...

 

[tmlowe]

5. BUT their are also military jobs that are 100% cush - and these should be privatized because they are not combative in nature. Examples are Medical (except for corpsman or MASH type personnel), Religious, Legal, Administrative, public affairs, weather, and the list goes on and on.

Do you know how much it would take to pay a civilian to do any of those jobs that a service member does? When overseas rockets, mortars, and enemy bullets don't care if you are combat arms or admin. As for hiring civilians, I had a friend who worked as a truck driver on the civilian side in Iraq. He made over double what E-4's with similar experience and some sort of combat training made. As someone who has been there I would rather have admin and PA by my side who can actually provide something in the event of a breach of perimeter or other attacks.

 

[CatCam]

Probably 1/2 as much once you add in all the training that the military has to pay for, medical, benefits, and then the cost to the government when they get out and get their DV status from the VA. YooHoo, payments for life! Yeah, don't get me started on that crock of BS. Hearing loss - DV. Didn't matter that the individual had a car stereo that could be heard a block away. It was all because of the military! GMAFB.

If a perimeter breach or attack occurred, the only thing I think admin and PA could provide is a short term obstacle....but probably in my way!!

So what I'm saying is to eliminate these types of billets and use this savings to pay the real fighters a lot more.

 

[tmlowe]

Probably 1/2 as much once you add in all the training that the military has to pay for, medical, benefits, and then the cost to the government when they get out and get their DV status from the VA. YooHoo, payments for life! Yeah, don't get me started on that crock of BS. Hearing loss - DV. Didn't matter that the individual had a car stereo that could be heard a block away. It was all because of the military! GMAFB.

If a perimeter breach or attack occurred, the only thing I think admin and PA could provide is a short term obstacle....but probably in my way!!

So what I'm saying is to eliminate these types of billets and use this savings to pay the real fighters a lot more.

For another example then is the PAO who goes on patrols to take pictures of the service members at work. We had a PAO who went on numerous missions to document what we did and could still provide support in the event of an attack. The same PAO who could only act as a short term obstacle...a 1LT with 10+ years in the infantry and just got a shitty assignment based on the needs of the Army. Had it been some civilian reporter who the military was paying to do the same job they just became a liability as we have to not only fight but provide protection for the reporter. While I can agree with downsizing some of these fields, doing away with them is not the answer especially in our last decade plus of war. At the end of the day a Soldier or Marine or even Sailor with boots on ground provides more use than any civilian who is just along for the ride. At least these people have some experience, even though maybe limited, on M240B, M249, M4 and maybe M9, MK19, or M2.

 

[aboatguy]

1. Yes - correct - but in the civilian world while you work you may have to put off college here and there based upon work, etc.
2. I stated Tricare had a cost to it. You ever see what COBRA costs are for health insurance? TriCare is still a good deal.
3. Incorrect - BAH is for serviceman with or without dependents. It is the serviceman's option to live on base or off -unless he got in some kind of trouble and the commander mandates that he live on post.
4. I also know a few guys that were medically discharged and make out like a bandit. It is hit or miss.
5. Offshore work is a risk as well but it is an free market that makes lots of money for their offshore company. I really don't think many (if any) servicemen are jumping ship to work in the oilfield. There are certain military jobs that are much more of a family burden and of imminent risk than others and I do think these positions should be compensated more than they are now. BUT their are also military jobs that are 100% cush - and these should be privatized because they are not combative in nature. Examples are Medical (except for corpsman or MASH type personnel), Religious, Legal, Administrative, public affairs, weather, and the list goes on and on.

Sorry brother, I retired last April after a CMC tour and not all of my Sailors received BAH, many were to junior according to the region commander and were living in barracks.
....and I don't know anyone who retired on their 20 year retirement., I did more than 30 years and my retirement is not half of what I was making on AD. I'm not complaining just stating facts. As for cush jobs I was a boatguy life was often exciting but usually anything but cush.

Mike

cmc Command Master Chief

 

[CatCam]

I did more than 30 years and my retirement is not half of what I was making on AD. I'm not complaining just stating facts.

Well here are the facts on retirement pay -- If you first entered a uniformed service* between September 8, 1980 and July 31, 1986:
Compute your retired pay using the same formula as the Final Pay system above, except you use the average basic pay for your three highest paid years (36 months) rather than final basic pay. This is called the High 36. Under the High 36 system you get 50% for 20 years of service up to a maximum of 100% for 40 years.**"Anyone retiring after January 1, 2007 with more than 30 years of total active service will receive credit for service over 30 years. For example, a member who served 32 years will receive 80 percent of their retired pay base and a member who has served 42 years will receive 105 percent of their retired pay base. In most cases, there is no longer a cap on the percentage multiplier to be utilized in the computation of retired pay."

 

[Pas Tout La]

Why are they even discussing cuts to service members pay when there are millions of lazy ass Americans sitting around collecting money to do not a damn thing? Cut those MFers checks and problem solved. Why must they always take the most ridiculous route to the solution?

 

[bjeepin2]

Retired reserve - 22 years - 2 all expense paid trips to Iraq.

air force?