Do signs have the force of law?

[AustinBR]

You go from interpreting every letter of the law, to why should they, why should we? Really?

They can, because they have the right as property owners as per the law. As it is written concealed carry is a privilege, and their right, supercedes your privilege.

We should, because it is our right as citizens to choose where we spend our dollars.

I won't disagree on not spending money at places with signs, but I still disagree on the law.

The question this thread is about is the law because many people go around saying there is a law that makes it a crime to ignore the signs. That is the entire point of this discussion. As of yet, no one has supplied anything that demonstrates that.

A business owner can prohibit people from entering based on any reason. But if someone comes in who they don't want there, have they committed a crime? I argue otherwise.

 

[leadslinger972]

should it escelate beyond " sir we have a no firearms policy, would you please leave?"

You will potentially be charged with trespassing if you do not leave. That is not what is in question.

What IS in question is if you are breaking the law the moment you enter onto property with posted signs.

 

[Blue Diamond]

You made false claims that you have still yet to back up. That's why. Everything that I have stated has been backed up. One does not have to be a law professional to copy and paste laws and bold parts of them.

Please refresh my memory. What false claims?

 

[leadslinger972]

Please refresh my memory. What false claims?

Perhaps the claim of CHP ownership 30 years ago...

Or the claim of being arrested.

 

[Deerslayer440]

Maybe if someone posted the texas rs on this law,it maybe easier to read
that and compare to actually understand how the La law is written with
vague interpretation.


Property owners are not biz owners.I assume that by property owners,they
mean ,home owners property's.If the statue was written in a way for bizs,
it would say businesses,right?

Like I stated before ,bla bla ccw holders have to adhere to posted signs
at any biz that had them on their front door or window should be how it
is written to be clear on ccw in a biz with a sign posted,right?

 

[Troedoff]

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[Deerslayer440]

RS14:95 could be applied in this case, as it is established that a property/store owner can prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns on their premises.

Illegal carrying of a weapon.

§95. Illegal carrying of weapons

A. Illegal carrying of weapons is:

(1) The intentional concealment of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, on one's person; or

(2) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used as a dangerous weapon, at any time by an enemy alien; or

(3) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any tools, or dynamite, or nitroglycerine, or explosives, or other instrumentality customarily used by thieves or burglars at any time by any person with the intent to commit a crime; or


short answer is yes you can be charged with this crime, if you are cc in a prohibited place.

It says nothing about a CCW person.That looks to be a law pertaining to a non ccw person ,the way Im reading it

 

[leadslinger972]

Maybe if someone posted the texas rs on this law,it maybe easier to read
that and compare to actually understand how the La law is written with
vague interpretation.


Property owners are not biz owners.I assume that by property owners,they
mean ,home owners property's.If the statue was written in a way for bizs,
it would say businesses,right?

Like I stated before ,bla bla ccw holders have to adhere to posted signs
at any biz that had them on their front door or window should be how it
is written to be clear on ccw in a biz with a sign posted,right?

I know of many business owners that own the property their business is located on.

RS14:95 could be applied in this case, as it is established that a property/store owner can prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns on their premises.

Illegal carrying of a weapon.

§95. Illegal carrying of weapons

A. Illegal carrying of weapons is:

(1) The intentional concealment of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, on one's person; or

(2) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used as a dangerous weapon, at any time by an enemy alien; or

(3) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any tools, or dynamite, or nitroglycerine, or explosives, or other instrumentality customarily used by thieves or burglars at any time by any person with the intent to commit a crime; or


short answer is yes you can be charged with this crime, if you are cc in a prohibited place.

Short answer is no, you cannot be charged with RS 14:95 for the reasons you just stated. It has yet to be proven that a posted sign creates a prohibited establishment.

 

[Troedoff]

.

 

[Gerberman]

It says nothing about a CCW person.That looks to be a law pertaining to a non ccw person ,the way Im reading it

My argument would be you essentially become a non chl holder when you enter the business posting that sign. The chl statute says it does not authorize you to carry there.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

[leadslinger972]

I have just made a valid argument, and shown you how you were in violation of RS14:95 by not being in compliance with the issuance of your CHP for carrying your weapon into a prohibited place.

Now your only argument could be the lack of specificity of the legislature, or the Intent of the store owner. You will lose this case a majority of the time.

By the way it doesn't have to be property owner, it can be Lessee, or any lawful custodian.

1) My argument would be that I didn't see the sign posted anywhere.
2) The judge would most likely throw it out.
3) I would have had to be trespassing or doing something illegal to be arrested.

Until there is proof of a sign having any value in prohibiting carry, you're pissing in the wind.

 

[leadslinger972]

My argument would be you essentially become a non chl holder when you enter the business posting that sign. The chl statute says it does not authorize you to carry there.

Correct. The statute does not give you authorization or magical power to go above and beyond what the property owner/lessee/custodian allows or disallows.

The statute does not say that a posted sign will land you in jail.

 

[AustinBR]

My argument would be you essentially become a non chl holder when you enter the business posting that sign. The chl statute says it does not authorize you to carry there.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

First, it is a CHP, not a CHL.

Second, how does it state that?

The law states that a CHP "shall not limit the right of a property owner...to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant."

It does NOT state that the CHP becomes invalid in a business.
It does NOT establish that any crime has been committed.
It does NOT state that one is not authorized to carry in a business with a sign.
It does NOT mention signs at all.

All the law states is that legally, one can be prohibited from entering a business based on if they are armed or not. Just like one can be prohibited by dress clothes restrictions. Or how one can be prohibited in the instance of requiring a membership (country club).

Basically it is allowing for that to be a valid prohibition (unlike things that are protected like race, sex, etc).

 

[AustinBR]

RS14:95 could be applied in this case, as it is established that a property/store owner can prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns on their premises.

Illegal carrying of a weapon.

§95. Illegal carrying of weapons

A. Illegal carrying of weapons is:

(1) The intentional concealment of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, on one's person; or

(2) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used as a dangerous weapon, at any time by an enemy alien; or

(3) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any tools, or dynamite, or nitroglycerine, or explosives, or other instrumentality customarily used by thieves or burglars at any time by any person with the intent to commit a crime; or


short answer is yes you can be charged with this crime, if you are cc in a prohibited place.

Carrying a weapon concealed with a valid CHP is not illegal unless you are in a location that specifically makes it illegal, such as a school's gun free zone. I don't see how this statute could apply as none of the provisions (1-3) have been met.

Please refresh my memory. What false claims?

Go re-read the thread. Quite a few of your posts have been quoted and questions have been posed that you have not responded to. That may answer your question.

 

[Troedoff]

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[AustinBR]

It does not say it won't either, so why play with fire? I am not saying you are right or wrong, I am saying you are leaving a lot up to interpretation, which is almost as bad as making Assumptions.

You asked for specific law which states that it is a crime, and It has been posted many times, and even shown how the argument could be made in court. It is your choice to accept it for what it is, or not. In many cases you could be charged with a violation of RS14:95. The odds that it will happen are meh, but I am not much of a gambler so.

Personally I like to err on the side of caution. I will continue to teach my classes, and students the same as well.

Good Luck.

So, would you advise your students to go to a movie theater or places like that unarmed then? If so, it seems like poor advice considering locations like that seem to be popular for crazies who would like to shoot into a crowd.

Would it not be prudent to inform students that the law doesn't expressly state that signs have any force of law behind them, though it may be better to err on the side of caution?

The reason this whole debate keeps coming up is because concealed carry instructors across Louisiana repeatedly inform people of things that are untrue or rely solely on their interpretation. For example, the whole "car is an extension of your home" statement that is passed around. It just isn't true.

In this case, there is no law that states that signs have a weight of law. Yes, not patronizing those businesses is a good plan, but sometimes people will "need" to go into them. As more and more businesses adopt signage, it may be necessary for someone to go into one. Do they disarm themselves though solely because of a sign?

You reference RS 14:95 as something that one could be charged with, but per the writing of it, there is no violation as no where does a law state that a business with a sign is a prohibited place.

 

[nola000]

So not to confuse anyone, it is a Concealed Handgun Permit, and not a CHL (although license and permit are essentially the same).

Of course.

I use "CHL" and sometimes "CCW" as shorthand when typing.

 

[leadslinger972]

I am saying you are leaving a lot up to interpretation

That's the point of this thread...

You asked for specific law which states that it is a crime, and It has been posted many times

Nowhere in this thread does it show where entering an establishment with a posted sign is a crime.

In many cases you could be charged with a violation of RS14:95.

Do you have proof of such cases?

Also it does specifically state that a property owner, Lessee, or Legal Custodian does have the right to prohibit or restrict access to a person possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a valid permit. This is a prohibited area by right of the Property Owner, Lessee, or Legal Custodian.

Here is an example:

My business does not have a no firearms sign, but I prohibit firearms at my business. I do not have any means of communicating that it is a prohibited area. By your logic, once you entered, you are breaking the law. How were you supposed to know it's a prohibited area?

No one is arguing what the statute states. We are only discussing what the statute does NOT state.

Feel free to continue teaching as you wish. No one is telling you that you must do otherwise. If you dislike the discussion at hand, you don't have to participate.

 

[leadslinger972]

Of course.

I use "CHL" and sometimes "CCW" as shorthand when typing.

Using CHP would be short hand for Concealed Handgun Permit.

Using CHL or CCW instead of CHP is lazy and incorrect.

 

[Troedoff]

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