Is Gun in car OK at V.A. Hospitals/Clinics?

[herohog]

This is a continuation from "CC in Post Office???":

Is it OK to have a gun or knife in your car at a V.A. facility? The cops there and the signs there say it is however, looking at the laws, it is questionable.

The law that the V.A. is standing by is as follows:

TITLE 38 - PENSIONS, BONUSES, AND VETERANS' RELIEF
CHAPTER I - DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
PART 1 - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1.218 - Security and law enforcement at VA facilities.

(a) Authority and rules of conduct. Pursuant to 38 U.S.C. 901, the following rules and regulations apply at all property under the charge and control of VA (and not under the charge and control of the General Services Administration) and to all persons entering in or on such property. The head of the facility is charged with the responsibility for the enforcement of these rules and regulations and shall cause these rules and regulations to be posted in a conspicuous place on the property.

(13) Weapons and explosives. No person while on property shall carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, except for official purposes.

(b) Schedule of offenses and penalties. Conduct in violation of the rules and regulations set forth in paragraph (a) of this section subjects an offender to arrest and removal from the premises. Whomever shall be found guilty of violating these rules and regulations while on any property under the charge and control of VA is subject to a fine as stated in the schedule set forth herein or, if appropriate, the payment of fixed sum in lieu of appearance (forfeiture of collateral) as may be provided for in rules of the United States District Court. Violations included in the schedule of offenses and penalties may also subject an offender to a term of imprisonment of not more than six months, as may be determined appropriate by a magistrate or judge of the United States District Court:

(37) Possession of firearms, carried either openly or concealed, whether loaded or unloaded (except by Federal or State law enforcement officers on official business, $500.

(38) Introduction or possession of explosives, or explosive devices which fire a projectile, ammunition, or combustibles, $500.

(39) Possession of knives which exceed a blade length of 3 inches; switchblade knives; any of the variety of hatchets, clubs and hand-held weapons; or brass knuckles, $300.

Others question as to weather the following supersedes that in that it doesn't seem to cover the grounds and that an exception is made for other lawful purposes as noted in the following:

18 USC Sec. 930 02/01/2010

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS

-HEAD-
Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

-STATUTE-
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

(e)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).

(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal
employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term "dangerous weapon" means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.
(3) The term "Federal court facility" means the courtroom, judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had
actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

Does anyone have a solid answer of court case citation on this?

 

[Bearco]

I think section (a) of Title 38 applies blanket coverage for (a)(13).
= No guns on property at all.

 

[herohog]

The measured blade lengths of both my SOG Twitch II and Leatherman Blast is EXACTLY 2½ inches!

PS: CRUD! I looked up the manufacturers specifications and they say: "Blade Length 2.68 inches"
I guess I will have to find someone with a bench grinder to make dang sure they both are UNDER 2½ inches in length!

 

[herohog]

I think section (a) of Title 38 applies blanket coverage for (a)(13).
= No guns on property at all.

That is how I take it too. CHP is worthless in this case too.

 

[tea333]

Even a LEO cannot carry a loaded firearm into a VA facility unless he/she is conducting official business. If the uniformed LEO is at the VA just visiting someone then he/she must surrender their firearm to the VA Police.

 

[TomTerrific]

I was at the VA Clinic here in BR yesterday. I believe the sign on the door said to the effect no guns or knives past this point.

If our vehicles are subject to search, I would think there would be a notification of that at the entrance to the parking lot, which isn't the case here.

What are you going to do with your carry gun if you have to get undressed for an examination, X-ray, or the like? I for one do not feel particularly threatened at the BR VA Clinic, but the parking garage at the VA Hospital in NO . . . . I worked at the building across the street from it and we parked in the Super Dome and were provided escorts there if we worked over and wanted one.

Two plants that I worked at allowed guns and knives in the parking lot and said so. They recognized people would work the night shift Thursday night and head for the deer camp when they got off of work Friday morning. No problem there.

 

[Leadfoot]

I'm not bashing your caution here, but I think a lot of people make mountains out of molehills when it comes to these types of things.

Leave the gun in the car and forget about it. Put the knife down in your pocket or leave it in the car and forget about it.

Do they have someone who searches you, or waves a wand over you or do you have to walk through a metal detector? If the answer to any of these is yes, then LEAVE it in the car and forget about it. If not, leave the gun in the car or don't. The choice is yours.

What I'm saying is, I have carried in places LEGALLY I was not able to do so. Did I get arrested? No. Did anyone search me? No. Nobody was ever the wiser.

Unless there is an incident where you had to actually use either of them, I doubt anyone will ever know unless you're obviously carrying, or you tell someone. And if you DO have to use either, it will be the minor issue compared to the overall situation.

Its like the old saying, "What they don't know doesn't hurt me."

This is MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY. Now all the wanna be lawyers on here are gonna jump my ass on how this is illegal and all that BS. Frankly, I don't care. If I get caught, its my ass. Not theirs. If I think its worth the risk, then I will do it. If not, I won't. YMMV.

Basically, being ILLEGAL doesn't stop a criminal from carrying a gun, and it won't stop me either. Does that make me a criminal? Maybe it does. I think it ALL BOILS DOWN TO INTENT.

 

[herohog]

The Shreveport has a no guns sign right AFTER you drive onto the property. There are signs posted in the ER that state you should check your firearm into the police if you are allowed to carry. I asked the cops about that and they said they were old and no longer valid. In mu poking about, I believe him to be right. No guns or knifes over 2½" in length are allowed in ANY VA buildings or on their property when posted. Please correct me, with legal citations/references, if you believe that to be incorrect.

 

[herohog]

... Its like the old saying, "What they don't know doesn't hurt me." ... Basically, being ILLEGAL doesn't stop a criminal from carrying a gun, and it won't stop me either. Does that make me a criminal? Maybe it does. I think it ALL BOILS DOWN TO INTENT.

Agreed IF you can afford to take the chance, however small, that you will be caught. I am a belt and suspenders kinda guy and would rather not take the chance. My main point with this thread was to establish what is and is not LEGAL. Rational and right usually do not agree with law and real life.

There are a ton of "concealed means concealed" folks. They would rather break the law and take their protection into their own hands. That is THEIR decision and the consequences rest squarely on their shoulders. Personally, I would not recommend that approach except in the rare cases where the law is SO far off base and unconstitutional as to be meaningless anyway (D.C., Chicago, Etc.).

In the VA facility I don't feel the NEED to go about armed. I would rather be responsible for my own protection but that flies in the face of the law and I can live with that even though I disagree with it to some degree. What crosses the line for me is to forbid, under color of law, my ability to have my gun with me on my way to and from the VA. I drive through some VERY sketchy neighborhoods getting there and their law affects me BEYOND their property limits and that is my major gripe in all of this. If it weren't for the fact that the signs plainly indicate that you have no right to refuse a search of your vehicle at any time for any reason, this would be almost a non-starter for me.

 

[KnightWolf09]

Since this is fed property, i'm assuming that LA's "constitutionally protected activity" clause doesn't apply? I've never been to a VA, but is the parking lot also fed property?

 

[tea333]

I work at the Shreveport VA and you would not believe the weapons that are confiscated. Usually illegal good sized knives but from time to time poorly concealed handguns. Your vehicle parked in the parking lot cannot be searched without reasonable cause but this does not give one the right to brings weapons onto Federal property. There have been incidents where the police officers, while making parking lot checks, have found long guns and handguns in vehicles just sitting out in the open. A handgun sitting in the front seat console or long guns with their stocks on the passenger floorboard with the barrel proped up against the passenger door. Sometimes even just laying out in the open in the back seat. All our VA police are former LEO's with military and civilian law enforcement backgrounds. The VA police DO NOT play when it comes to the firearms rules and regs. If caught with an illegal weapon you at least expect to loose that weapon, face possible arrest, be given at least a $500 fine and have to appear in Federal Court. The last patient I personally know of that made it up to the wards as a patient and had a handgun was carrying a Ruger Redhawk .44 magnum, loaded. He was one of our long-term patients with multiple admits to the hospital due to brain cancer. Due to his extreme illness all that happened was his handgun was confiscated, a flag placed in his medical record and he was thoroughly checked everytime he came into the ER or clinics to be seen. Not everyone who goes to the VA for care has the mental capacity for even own a firearm. Given the nature of our patient population, all veterans, many combat vets and all trained to some degree with military firearms, there is always the chance of an armed patient going to clinic visits or the ER. Take my advise and if you have to go to the VA hospital please leave your handguns and illegal knives someplace else before going inside the hospital. The VA staff, patients, visitors and police have the right to be in a safe environment. All it takes is one patient with mental problems or some type of anger issues with the VA to create a major armed confrontation. None of us need that. There are armed VA police officers, undercover police officers roaming around so be aware, be safe and honor the VA for what we do as caregivers to our nations veterans.

 

[herohog]

tea333 THANK YOU very much for posting. This is what I figured and wanted to verify. I have a lock box bolted to my trunk floor that I can secure objects in but I haven't even used that there as I didn't think it would protect me from search or prosecution. I leave it at home. It is super simple to find out who I am as I don't make any real effort to hide it and I have been on the Internet since its beginnings and I know there are people like you who could easily drop a dime on me and, the next visit to the VA, I get searched. I am not saying YOU would do that but that someone who worked there and viewed these forums like you do could.

Questions answered. We can close this puppy as far as I am concerned!

 

[tea333]

One other important thing about bringing firearms onto Federal VA Hospital property. If one is caught there is a chance that person "could" be barred from further VA hospital care and be seen only in emergency situations. This would be an extreme case but it could happen. Most people in their right mind would not like to lose their healthcare benefits.

What I read in these forums stays in these forums unless it's a post written to threaten or attempt to cause bodily hard to another.

 

[herohog]

One other important thing about bringing firearms onto Federal VA Hospital property. If one is caught there is a chance that person "could" be barred from further VA hospital care and be seen only in emergency situations. This would be an extreme case but it could happen. Most people in their right mind would not like to lose their healthcare benefits.

I would be in a most grave situation if I lost my VA care as it is all I have and I am in quite poor shape medically!

What I read in these forums stays in these forums unless it's a post written to threaten or attempt to cause bodily hard to another.

Of this, I have no doubt. I was just using you as an example of how easy it would be to get in deep trouble just for having a gun locked in your car even if well secured/concealed.