NSFW All Out War in Kiev NSFW

[madwabbit]

What is the US%?

There are by various estimates anywhere from 270 million to 300 million guns in the United States — pretty close to one firearm for every man, woman and child.

We are in first place by a landslide.

 

[Emperor]

FYI: The news reported a cease fire since this discussion was posted.

 

[MALIBU12]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2564508/Im-dying-Volunteer-medic-21-posts-desperate-message-Twitter-shot-throat-Kiev-plunges-new-savagery-bodies-littering-streets.html

more pics ++++NSFW++++

 

[oleheat]

I'm certainly no authority, but it sure sounded like a lot of those rounds were finding their mark. Poor bastards.

 

[Emperor]

Has anyone reported who is actually shooting the protesters? Police or military? Or are they one in the same there?

No excuse for gunning down your own people, but unlike here; those officers/soldiers are in a tough spot. You can disappear over there at the hands of the government seemingly easy!

 

[oleheat]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2564508/Im-dying-Volunteer-medic-21-posts-desperate-message-Twitter-shot-throat-Kiev-plunges-new-savagery-bodies-littering-streets.html

more pics ++++NSFW++++

Looks like they're scrounging whatever they can find. I wonder how many Brits realize this is an air rifle?

 

[SpeedRacer]

The Ukraine has highly restrictive gun control, stats I found put the total of privately owned firearms under a million, with about 600K being shotguns and only 22,000 rifles registered. Also, given the cost and requirements for licensing, it's safe to say most of the people that do own guns are not likely to be the ones in the street protesting.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

The issue in The Ukraine is complex. There is certainly an element of a populace fed up with corruption and a government that caters to oligarchs. At the same time your also seeing what happens when a Nation in this case the USSR shapes a state to achieve its goals. There are 2 Ukraines. The West of the Country ethnically Ukrainian. They speak a similar language to Polish, are Catholic, and look to Warsaw and Europe for the future. The Eastern part of the Ukraine was filled by Stalin with displaced Russians starting in the 20's. As a result is population is ethnically Russian.

The Soviets and now The Russians need Ukraine to remain in their sphere of influence. Sevastopol is a vital Warm Water Port for Russia and its only Black Sea Access. The Ukraine also provides Strategic Depth to Russia. Western Russia has no Natural Barriers to invasion between Europe and Moscow except the Large Rivers in The Ukraine. Historically Russia has traded land for time and counted on the vastness of the Ukraine and Winter to sap the strength of invaders. The move of Ukraine toward the European Sphere of Influence and to a greater extent NATO terrifies Russia.

Putin and his cronies have, since The Color Revolutions of the early 2000s attempted to turn the tide of former Soviet Member States drifting towards Europe. That battlefield is now in Kiev. The Current Regime in Ukraine is made up of a Powerful Russian Backed President and a Weak Parliament. The Protest Movement wants to see the President Resign and Presidential Power Checked in the future.

 

[JadeRaven]

Thanks VG

 

[Emperor]

The issue in The Ukraine is complex. There is certainly an element of a populace fed up with corruption and a government that caters to oligarchs. At the same time your also seeing what happens when a Nation in this case the USSR shapes a state to achieve its goals. There are 2 Ukraines. The West of the Country ethnically Ukrainian. They speak a similar language to Polish, are Catholic, and look to Warsaw and Europe for the future. The Eastern part of the Ukraine was filled by Stalin with displaced Russians starting in the 20's. As a result is population is ethnically Russian.

The Soviets and now The Russians need Ukraine to remain in their sphere of influence. Sevastopol is a vital Warm Water Port for Russia and its only Black Sea Access. The Ukraine also provides Strategic Depth to Russia. Western Russia has no Natural Barriers to invasion between Europe and Moscow except the Large Rivers in The Ukraine. Historically Russia has traded land for time and counted on the vastness of the Ukraine and Winter to sap the strength of invaders. The move of Ukraine toward the European Sphere of Influence and to a greater extent NATO terrifies Russia.

Putin and his cronies have, since The Color Revolutions of the early 2000s attempted to turn the tide of former Soviet Member States drifting towards Europe. That battlefield is now in Kiev. The Current Regime in Ukraine is made up of a Powerful Russian Backed President and a Weak Parliament. The Protest Movement wants to see the President Resign and Presidential Power Checked in the future.

But we've been told that there is no more American exceptionalism? We are supposed to be living under the democrats utopian foreign policy of internationalism?

Surely Russia won't try to intervene in this because the Pretender and his all knowing cabinet of dunces said so. Those silly geese!

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Russia has intervened the entire time. The reason the current President of Ukraine is Presodent is because of Russian Intervention. I think based on the actions on the ground that the US is taking a secondary role to the Europeans on this matter as they should.

 

[oleheat]

Do you think- if it came down to it- Putin would send in troops to force the issue as he did when Georgia tried to assert itself- or are his Ukrainian friends strong enough to protect his assets?

I know this is a different situation....Georgia had an army. This movement seems to be made up of civilians....

 

[olivs260]

Thanks for the analysis, Nate.

 

[usmc-nav]

Man.... had to look it up. Oligarch ?? Thanks for the information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarch

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Do you think- if it came down to it- Putin would send in troops to force the issue as he did when Georgia tried to assert itself- or are his Ukrainian friends strong enough to protect his assets?

I know this is a different situation....Georgia had an army. This movement seems to be made up of civilians....

In my opinion it's a very different situation. Georgians aren't Russian. Ethnically. I doubt Russia would use Russian Troops against Russians. They have been reluctant to do so in the recent past. Georgia is also geographically far from Europe and Isolated where as the Ukraine is in Europe and Surrounded on 3 sides by NATO Members. When he used force against Georgia Putin rightly guessed that The US and NATO were too busy in Iraq and Afghanistan to care. That's not the case now. Putin also needs Europe buying Russian Gas to keep his economy afloat. Oil ad Gas are the sole movers in the Russian Economy now. As much as Russia doesn't want a NATO Member adjacent to Moscow it wants a Civil War next door even less. Lastly it's fairly clear that Georgia did quite a bit to provoke armed conflict with Moscow hoping, incorrectly, that the US and NATO would ride to the rescue. Again not a similar situation.

 

[oleheat]

Very interesting situation......Thank you.

 

[themcfarland]

The police that are shooting the protesters, are they loyal to east or west?
I cannot seem to find where it devolved from protesting to live rounds being fired? I know its recent, but who ordered it?

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I think these situations become self licking lollipops. If you talked to the protestors they would say by throwing Molotov cocktails they are defending themselves. The rank and file police probably feel the same way. Their are radical elements on both sides bent on mayhem. The longer it goes on the less it will be clear who started it or why. The Police are there to maintain order and protect public property. They are the symbol of government. The Protestors are there to tear down a government, the most accessible part of that government is the Police. Self Licking Lollipop.

 

[sandman7925]

What is the US%?

#1

 

[tim9lives]

They rank 84th in the world for gun ownership. It's a fight they can't win.

All it takes is money. Its very simple for a well funded anti-communist group to buy small arms on the international market. I would think that if they decide to take up arms....They will get enough arms.
For now...I think they are trying to stay a peaceful demonstration. I saw something earlier...sounded like a truce signed. But that means nothing...Day to day. Especially if snipers keep shooting un-armed demonstrators....And then shoot the rescuers trying to pick up wounded.