Lokin4AReason
Well-Known Member
http://www.gunnews.com/police-stops-legal-rights/
I’ve seen it over and over again: Police get a call from some ignorant person about someone they saw carrying a gun. Police come to the scene and find a citizen in legal possession of a firearm, be it a handgun or a long gun. The officer then, based solely on the fact that they have a firearm, attempts to obtain the personal information of the individual. “My I see your ID please?” So, let me explain to everyone, including these officers, exactly how this works.
Until a crime has been committed, police may NOT require personal information from a citizen. They may ask for ID or they may ask to look at the gun.
However, until they have committed a crime or engaged in behavior that creates suspicion of committing a crime, your 2nd amendment rights are still protected by the 4th amendment right. Without probable cause, they may not require personal information; they may only ask. If they ask for a name, for ID, where I live, my gun’s serial ID, or what I like on my pizza, I don’t have to say anything, at all. They either ask hoping that you will volunteer the information or they’re ignorant of the fact that they don’t possess the authority to require the information.
Beyond that, confiscation of the firearm is protected by the same rights. The 2nd amendment states, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” This is followed by the less understood 4th amendment, which reads, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons…against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
Let us consider a couple of good examples here. San Antonio, TX, August 25th, 2013. Three men buy coffee at Starbucks to support to company open carry policy. The men inform management that they will be outside with the firearms, which the manager approves. Citizen reports to police that there are men at Starbucks with guns. Police arrive (several vehicles worth) and talk to the men, eventually agreeing that no laws are being violated. When police ask for ID, the men, though not legally required to, consent to have their ID’s validated. Then police Sgt. requests to know the serial numbers on the guns. The men decline to provide this information. The Sgt. threatens to charge the mean with disorderly conduct if they do not comply. They again decline, so they are individually cited. Police were outside of their legal authority and should be taken to court.
This event led to the Alamo rallies last week in San Antonio, protesting this sort of ignorant police behavior.
On Friday, Temple, Texas native and Army Master Sargent Christopher Grisham was on trial for “rudely displaying” an AR-15 while hiking with his son. This son was working on the BSA hiking merit badge, which required a 10 mile hike, and his father went with him. They were stopped by police, who had been called by a concerned citizen. Not in violation of any laws, the father would not consent to having his ID or gun taken by the officer, so he was arrested and the gun forcibly taken from him. The father and son recorded the entire event. “We are exempt from the law,” said the Police Sgt.
No officer, you actually aren’t. You enforce the law, nothing more.
A perfect example of how to handle these situations can be seen here. Now, it really is easier to comply, but your name will go into reports if you do. And, simply put, you have no obligation to, but the police should already know that. The number of Supreme Court rulings about police search and seizures is large. Just remember the following:
Terry v. Ohio: An officer may frisk a civilian if they feel under threat, but only then.
Delaware v. Prouse An officer may NOT stop/search until a law is suspected of being broken.
Brown v. Texas An officer may not request to view ID unless the individual is suspected of committing a crime.
Deberry v. U.S. “They might have a hunch he was a felon and so violating the law. It would not matter, so far as the Fourth Amendment is concerned, as we explained earlier.”
“It’s just common practice sir.” “Yep, it’s illegal common practice.”
All that said, be aware of what local laws allow when open carrying. Most places allow open carry for long arms. Sometimes cities restrict bullets in the chamber, but not open carry. Sometimes handguns aren’t allowed to be open carried, but an AR-15 is allowed. Every state and city is different. Just know before you walk outside. Actually, you should know before you move there so you don’t have to put up with dumb laws. If you move to a place that openly restricts your second amendment rights, expect them to attack other rights as well.
I’ve seen it over and over again: Police get a call from some ignorant person about someone they saw carrying a gun. Police come to the scene and find a citizen in legal possession of a firearm, be it a handgun or a long gun. The officer then, based solely on the fact that they have a firearm, attempts to obtain the personal information of the individual. “My I see your ID please?” So, let me explain to everyone, including these officers, exactly how this works.
Until a crime has been committed, police may NOT require personal information from a citizen. They may ask for ID or they may ask to look at the gun.
However, until they have committed a crime or engaged in behavior that creates suspicion of committing a crime, your 2nd amendment rights are still protected by the 4th amendment right. Without probable cause, they may not require personal information; they may only ask. If they ask for a name, for ID, where I live, my gun’s serial ID, or what I like on my pizza, I don’t have to say anything, at all. They either ask hoping that you will volunteer the information or they’re ignorant of the fact that they don’t possess the authority to require the information.
Beyond that, confiscation of the firearm is protected by the same rights. The 2nd amendment states, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” This is followed by the less understood 4th amendment, which reads, “The right of the people to be secure in their persons…against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
Let us consider a couple of good examples here. San Antonio, TX, August 25th, 2013. Three men buy coffee at Starbucks to support to company open carry policy. The men inform management that they will be outside with the firearms, which the manager approves. Citizen reports to police that there are men at Starbucks with guns. Police arrive (several vehicles worth) and talk to the men, eventually agreeing that no laws are being violated. When police ask for ID, the men, though not legally required to, consent to have their ID’s validated. Then police Sgt. requests to know the serial numbers on the guns. The men decline to provide this information. The Sgt. threatens to charge the mean with disorderly conduct if they do not comply. They again decline, so they are individually cited. Police were outside of their legal authority and should be taken to court.
This event led to the Alamo rallies last week in San Antonio, protesting this sort of ignorant police behavior.
On Friday, Temple, Texas native and Army Master Sargent Christopher Grisham was on trial for “rudely displaying” an AR-15 while hiking with his son. This son was working on the BSA hiking merit badge, which required a 10 mile hike, and his father went with him. They were stopped by police, who had been called by a concerned citizen. Not in violation of any laws, the father would not consent to having his ID or gun taken by the officer, so he was arrested and the gun forcibly taken from him. The father and son recorded the entire event. “We are exempt from the law,” said the Police Sgt.
No officer, you actually aren’t. You enforce the law, nothing more.
A perfect example of how to handle these situations can be seen here. Now, it really is easier to comply, but your name will go into reports if you do. And, simply put, you have no obligation to, but the police should already know that. The number of Supreme Court rulings about police search and seizures is large. Just remember the following:
Terry v. Ohio: An officer may frisk a civilian if they feel under threat, but only then.
Delaware v. Prouse An officer may NOT stop/search until a law is suspected of being broken.
Brown v. Texas An officer may not request to view ID unless the individual is suspected of committing a crime.
Deberry v. U.S. “They might have a hunch he was a felon and so violating the law. It would not matter, so far as the Fourth Amendment is concerned, as we explained earlier.”
“It’s just common practice sir.” “Yep, it’s illegal common practice.”
All that said, be aware of what local laws allow when open carrying. Most places allow open carry for long arms. Sometimes cities restrict bullets in the chamber, but not open carry. Sometimes handguns aren’t allowed to be open carried, but an AR-15 is allowed. Every state and city is different. Just know before you walk outside. Actually, you should know before you move there so you don’t have to put up with dumb laws. If you move to a place that openly restricts your second amendment rights, expect them to attack other rights as well.
As people walk by in front of them while sitting outside, they stop them and ask them their opinions on open carry while one guy holds up his rifle showing it to them.
