Question for LEOs and GIs...

[Tim67]

I thought it was:

Clip = retains ammo as a unit to be feed into weapon. Does not fully enclose ammo.
ie stripper clip

Magazine = encloses ammo and feeds ammo to action, often detachable.

the Garand 8 Round clip doesn't simply load the ammo into the gun's magazine. It also functions to feed the action?

Very interesting.

Garand clips, like Mannlicher clips, are "en bloc" clips, and stay in the magazine until empty, functioning in the same way as the "lips" of a detachable magazine.

 

[Tim67]

...But what do I know... stuck in the 70s like I am, according to some...

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Is your AR15 an A1? It's OK; I used to have a CAR15-speaking of that, I'm a little behind the times. What's new about the M4 vs the CAR15?

 

[Hitman]

The Army and Marines had a bad batch of several hundred thousand M9 Mags from a Company called Checkmate. If you loaded the Checkmate Mags to their full 15 rd capacity they were very prone to malfunction. In the units I was in we sorted throught the mags and picked out all the Aero-Products and OEM Mags and tried to only use those. If we had to use the Checkmate mags we only loaded 10 or 11 rounds. NEVER buy Surplus M9 Mags. The Mil has fixed the problem and replaced the bad mags now and Checkmate M9 Mags have flooded the market.

I'll attest to that

The military has taught for many years (going back to Vietnam era) to load M16 mags one or two less than capacity. .

Yep

Loading M16 mags a couple rounds short was common in the early days, but I don't know if the practice was really necessary or if it persisted for any appreciable time.

Still common knowledge in the Marine Corps Infantry.

But what do I know... stuck in the 70s like I am, according to some...
.

Nope it's still relevant and being taught to day Old Man!

Still issuing the same old Mags.

 

[Tim67]

...I see no need for rail systems or prosthetic devices on a civilian carbine. If you can afford 3rd gen NVDs, then an IR illuminator would be nice. But for most of us, an optic and white light is all you need to be effective...
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I agree. These quad-rail systems seem to be best at simply turning what used to be a hand guard into a hand eater.

 

[dos gris]

No, no, it's true! We only carried 676 rounds in the 678 round drum magazine in the F14- otherwise, it made tactical reloads too difficult for scrawny RIO's

 

[dantheman]

I have a good friend that told me that he loaded his Colt .45 acp magazine to the top and put it away for over 15 years . I got him back into shooting again and he is still using that same mag with NO malfunctions . I have no reason to doubt what he said .

 

[Guate_shooter]

Pistol: full capacity, all the time.

Shotgun: Full capacity

Rifle (AR) I actually have 28rds in my 30rd mags, reason being per policy we keep the rifle secured bolt forward on an empty chamber. Having 30rds in the mag can make it harder to insert the mag with the bolt forward.

DAVE this is by far one of the best answers given so far, I would suggest look into what LSP has to say.

Keep in mind as a civilian the same principle still applies, depending on the design of the magazine and spring sometimes it is actually better to have -1 in the mag, the wonderfull 1911 is NOTORIOUS for this, IF for some reasson you are trying to NOT run dry while leaving the last round in the chamber and you drop the mag and try to insert a full mag with the slide forward and NOT locked back you will have to SLAM it in there as the spring has minimum area to compress while locking itself in place.

IF you have already ran dry and your slide is locked then this issue doesnt really apply as you should have a clear way up until it locks itself in place.

It all depends on the situation, training and design of the specific magazine/spring and follower, most of the newer combat weapons have taken this into consideration in the design of their mags but those who still carry the old bang bangs have to understand the limitations of the platform.

Then again i dont know much so dont believe me PLEASE

As far as weakening springs by keeping them fully compressed, I usually rotate my mags every so many months and dont relly on just one mag to do the job, I believe if I take care of my gear the gear will take care of me.

 

[dos gris]

...leave the grunt stuff to us tactical-schmactical types...

You can have it.

I never realized how complex small arms employment was until the interwebz came into being and I happened upon AR15.com and tactical trainers. Never in my wildest dreams did I think anyone could spend so much time fighting over what I thought were simple concepts and basic systems.

 

[general mills]

not LEO or military, but putting in my 2 cents anyway as I don't look like the first, and my reason hasen't been mentioned yet. Spare mags in car, closet, ect, loaded full. mag in gun, if 1911, full +1, as I could see the use for the extra round. Revolvers, full. Glock 19.........-1. Reason, may not be popular, but I'm at the age where many of my friends have kids, and some of my friends opinions on guns differ than my own. Very convienent to unload mag and put chambered round back into mag, then there is not a free round floating around to get lost. As far as having one more bullet being better, true, very good point. But I am a civilian and feel that most likely, if I need that wepon, the encounter will be over in 3-5 sec and then, one of us (or 3 of them!) is incapacitated and there is no further use for the wepon. 15 is alot of bullets and I have trouble seeing the situation where I'll need more. If I really ran out of bullets, or had a gun malfunction, well...time to reach for gun #2. Reloading takes to long anyway.

 

[dos gris]

..Your pistol WILL be seized, and it WILL be examined; perhaps by yours truly.

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If that is the case, then I expect it to be returned after a pristine cleaning and thorough lubrication according to the manufacturer's specifications!

If you need to account for my rounds, just look center mass.


Good points. I can't see where downloading makes any sense for a pistol. The spring thing just won't die, but a tac pistol reload doesn't seem to have the seating problem inherent in some rifles.

 

[W1nds0rF0x]

Duty carry: Hot with mag topped off. Every round counts.

Off duty: Hot with mag topped off. Every round counts.

+1

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Is your AR15 an A1? It's OK; I used to have a CAR15-speaking of that, I'm a little behind the times. What's new about the M4 vs the CAR15?

Off the top of my head:

CAR-15:

Long Flash Hider
No Feed Ramps
A1 Lower and Upper
Fixed Carry Handle
Full-Auto in all variants
Unique Barrel Contour(kind of a mid-weight profile, no grenade launcher cuts)
1/9 twist
Barrel length 12.5"

M4/M4A1:

GI Bird Cage Flash Hider
Feed Ramps
STUPID Barrel Contour(Thick in the wrong part, dumb Grenade Launcher Cuts)
1/7 Twist
M4 Variant not full-auto
Removable Carry handle
Barrel length 13.7"



The CAR's where never that great. The lack of the feed ramps caused lots of issues. The reason they were popular was because the alternative was the M16A1/A2 Combat Musket, well that and they look rad.

 

[ajt2341]

Both in the military, LE (local and fed), and private when it comes to pistol I've always been trained full +1. The M16/M4 has varied depending on when and where I trained.

Basic training in 2004 we were required to always load a few short, and I've been told the same thing in some LE courses. The military cited spring and follower issues, the LE cited (and I've experienced) mag insertion problems with the bolt forward. In Iraq I was informed that spring issues were no longer a problem and of course given a full load for the M4 and M9 mags.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Newer AR mags specifically; the P-Mag, ARC Mag, and Lancer Mags are designed for bolt closed insertion and locking with a full 30rd load. I load GI Mags with 28 but honestly I can't remember the last time I used a GI Mag.

 

[dos gris]

Given your philosophy toward cleaning/lubrication (and the fact that you actually SHOOT your stuff), I doubt we have enough solvent and brushes in my lab stash to accomplish that...

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Solvent and brushes? What pray tell, are you supposed to do with those?

400 rounds yesterday, 250 tomorrow, another 100 on Thursday- then I'll clean the thing. It is an HK you know...

 

[symposium]

Im in the Marine Corps Infantry, I've done a combat tour to Iraq, and to Afghanistan. He is correct. our M16 mags will hold 30, we have been taught to load 25-28. I personally carry 28. This is because the spring will be condesned to much and when you get down to the last few rounds you need that tension to prevent a jam or misfead. Another helpful tip is I would download my mags about once a week, clean them and sometimes stretch the spring a bit to give it a little extra tension. Magazine upkeep is very important. clean your mags and clean your rounds on a somewhat regular basis.

 

[91Foxtrot]

I guess I take it for granted working in 3rd shop Armament. If something breaks, i just get a brand new one from my bench stock. Same with magazines, I change them out before the springs have a chance to go bad on me Most of my M4 is less than 6 months old as of now

 

[Tim67]

Off the top of my head:

CAR-15:

Long Flash Hider
No Feed Ramps
A1 Lower and Upper
Fixed Carry Handle
Full-Auto in all variants
Unique Barrel Contour(kind of a mid-weight profile, no grenade launcher cuts)
1/9 twist
Barrel length 12.5"

M4/M4A1:

GI Bird Cage Flash Hider
Feed Ramps
STUPID Barrel Contour(Thick in the wrong part, dumb Grenade Launcher Cuts)
1/7 Twist
M4 Variant not full-auto
Removable Carry handle
Barrel length 13.7"



The CAR's where never that great. The lack of the feed ramps caused lots of issues. The reason they were popular was because the alternative was the M16A1/A2 Combat Musket, well that and they look rad.

...And of course with my CAR being commercial, the barrel was 16" long.

I agree about that barrel contour being stupid. When the A2's first appeared in the 80's I read that the new barrel would be heavy from the handguard forward and inside the handguard it would be reduced to the A1 diameter to accommodate the mounts for the M203 grenade launcher. What genius decided it was better to make a barrel with a stupid profile on all the rifles than to change the mounts on the launchers that will only be installed on a few?

 

[Blackhawk]

But you never heard about the M9 mag problem?

Interesting...

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Someone still trying to put words in my mouth that I didn't say. My original comment was "I've been a military small arms instructor since 1990, and never heard of loading pistol mags to less than capacity".

For the most part, military mags are expendable. If they don't work, don't use them, don't try to load less than capacity, get another that works. I personally always load pistol mags to capacity, but I've tested my mags and know they work. I don't load rifle mags to capacity, but that's just how I was taught. Worked for me in Vietnam and also in Iraq, so that's what I'll continue doing. YMMV

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

For the most part, military mags are expendable. If they don't work, don't use them, don't try to load less than capacity, get another that works.

This tells me your out of touch with your troops and the realities on the ground. There were no alternative mags. You couldn't throw away the bad M9 Mags. The situation was bad enough the Army had to contract for several hundred thousand more mags and issue a Maintenance Message covering the turn in and exchange of the bad mags. For Rifle Mags as far back as 1999 and as recently as right now the US Army Infantry Center, the proponent agency for small arms training, is teaching and publishing loading 28rds in 30rd mags to insure they will seat on a closed bolt.