Shooting in Pierre Part this AM....Anyone know what's going on??

[LongGoneDays]

I don't know the timing of what happened, maybe he started shooting immediately after the woman went down. I see what you're saying and I agree. I'm just pointing out the best option isn't always to engage.

I'm just realize my limitations and am a realist. At minimum I would have drawn at kept it out of sight, if possible.

 

[LongGoneDays]

Nolacopusmc

Cant quote and trim down long posts on this phone but in response to your sliding scale...
DAMN RIGHT! With the exception some people I might be with being first priority. Some.

The story in italics made me LOL, does that make me a bad person?

 

[Hitman]

I'm just realize my limitations and am a realist. At minimum I would have drawn at kept it out of sight, if possible.

Which could actually be what he did.

Here's what I think happen.

Angry man yelling at female.
Coherent Gun owner takes notice, stops eating, hand on weapon, possibly prompted someone to call 911
Felon pulls gun *BANG* female down ~
Citizen gun-up gives (VERBAL) command - Felon turns and shoots - Citizen returns fire (Or both fired simultaneously) hitting each other.

I think the Citizen gave a verbal command which caused the felon to aim towards him and fire.
I think it's more likely that had the Armed Citizen NOT given a verbal command and just fired on the Felon the Armed Citizen would not have been shot.

Who knows the whole truth but that's what I think happen.

LEO's might have to give a verbal command (Warning) but I'm pretty sure Civilians aren't charged with having to do so. Brannon?

 

[sam4freedom]

I saw later that it's down the road from the place I was thinking of.....One thing's for sure: There's no shortage of Landrys in Pierre Part....

LOL, that is so true. I've been to a wedding that both bride and groom where Landrys before getting hitched.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Which could actually be what he did.

Here's what I think happen.

Angry man yelling at female.
Coherent Gun owner takes notice, stops eating, hand on weapon, possibly prompted someone to call 911
Felon pulls gun *BANG* female down ~
Citizen gun-up gives (VERBAL) command - Felon turns and shoots - Citizen returns fire (Or both fired simultaneously) hitting each other.

I think the Citizen gave a verbal command which caused the felon to aim towards him and fire.
I think it's more likely that had the Armed Citizen NOT given a verbal command and just fired on the Felon the Armed Citizen would not have been shot.

Who knows the whole truth but that's what I think happen.

LEO's might have to give a verbal command (Warning) but I'm pretty sure Civilians aren't charged with having to do so. Brannon?

Extremely plausaible theory and pretty much what I would have done with the addition of physically moving away from my party hopefully to available cover.


No legal requirement to use commands, though definitely beneficial from a "court" standpoint if the tactical environment allows for it. SOmetimes it does, and sometimes it does not.

 

[oleheat]

I don't know the timing of what happened, maybe he started shooting immediately after the woman went down. I see what you're saying and I agree. I'm just pointing out the best option isn't always to engage.

I'm just realize my limitations and am a realist. At minimum I would have drawn at kept it out of sight, if possible.

I understand what you are saying.

I've never eaten there on my trips to the area, but from the highway, the building looks to be relatively small. I really couldn't say what the other man's options for escape/cover/etc actually were.
With Pierre Part being the small community that it is- did the CHP holder (IF he was even a local) know the others involved- thus influencing his response? IDK, lots of things to ponder in this case, I suppose....We now know that the murderer was not exactly a great guy with a history of violence...Maybe he already knew that.

In the end, I guess the man's back was against the wall, he had to make a very fast decision, and he made his choice. I hope he recovers fast from his injuries....

 

[stancel]

It is so hard to put yourself in that situation and hypothesis what you would have done. Sitting here behind a keyboard in a safe environment, I might say I would have chosen NOT to engage if I had loved ones sitting next to me. I say that because their safety, not necessarily my own, is far and away my #1 concern. But do you wait to see if the shooter has fired his last round, or do you engage him (WITHOUT ALERTING HIM TO YOUR INTENTIONS) and put down the threat before waiting to see? I don't know, but the best case scenario would be that he leaves without harming anyone else, you keep yourself and family out of harms way, and let Law Enforcement take care of it. But, like I said, who knows what I would have done.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Attention Please​

If anyone here knows someone who can put me in contact with either a witness who was in the restaurant at the time of the shooting, the gentlemen who defended himself and others, or one of the officers working the case, I would be greatly appreciative.

I am interested in researching and analyzing this particular case as a case study for academic purposes in pursuit of my Master’s of Criminal Justice Administration Degree and also as professional education as it pertains to the education of law enforcement officers and future armed citizens.

I would like to interview anyone who can lend statements to what happened so that we can do a formal analysis of the sequence of events and how they can help improve safety and training of legally armed citizens, people involved in abusive domestic relationships, and officers investigating self defense shootings.

I am interested in finding facts and determining how variables may have affected the outcome of the incident. This will be a non-invasive and informal debriefing of the situation from the viewpoint of the individual being interviewed. While I intend to get the police report when available via the FOIA, speaking directly to involved parties in a non-judgmental setting with the mutual goal of saving lives usually results in more pertinent details being revealed.

There is a chance the case and materials discovered will be used in published works to include textbooks, non-fiction writings, and articles.

If you are familiar with the case studies that gentlemen like Massaad Ayoob and Tom Givens have done on post-shooting incidents, this will be in that same vein

Full anonymity of participants can be guaranteed. Anyone who knows me knows that I have devoted my life to teaching the skills necessary to survive in a threatening world. In no way shape or form is this inquiry to be exploitive of the witnesses or police. This is an academic research project designed to reveal facts and circumstances for future educational purposes, and it will be handled as such. In the event anyone goes to trial, I will make all research available to the defense team and will testify to my findings in a court of law.

Please contact me or forward my information to appropriate parties.

Brannon LeBouef
Brannon@nolatac.com
www.nolatac.com
504-982-5433

 

[Hitman]

Extremely plausaible theory and pretty much what I would have done with the addition of physically moving away from my party hopefully to available cover.


No legal requirement to use commands, though definitely beneficial from a "court" standpoint if the tactical environment allows for it. SOmetimes it does, and sometimes it does not.

Are you saying that an Off-Duty LEO is not legally bound by the State/Gov. Authority, to give a Verbal Warning before initiating contact via gun fire?

Not being anal just trying have a thorough understanding of the statement and squash any such misunderstanding of the SOP's an Off-Duty LEO might have to follow legally if an engagement like this were to take place.

I know it would helpful in court for a CIV, but always thought it would be disastrous for an Off-Duty if the LEO had not given any such warning before firing.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Are you saying that an Off-Duty LEO is not legally bound by the State/Gov. Authority, to give a Verbal Warning before initiating contact via gun fire?

Not being anal just trying have a thorough understanding of the statement and squash any such misunderstanding of the SOP's an Off-Duty LEO might have to follow legally if an engagement like this were to take place.

I know it would helpful in court for a CIV, but always thought it would be disastrous for an Off-Duty if the LEO had not given any such warning before firing.

There is no LAW requiring anyone, LEO or not, to give verbal commands.

However, MOST LEO are trained to draw and give verbal commands at the same time. the whole point of verbal commands is that they are a last ditch effort to not have to shoot.

Many times, things will happen so fast or be set up in such a way that verbal commands are not possible or practical (sniper hostage shot).

I can tell you right now, that from years of training, I am not sure I could stop myself if i wanted to from yelling "POLICE! Don't MOVE!", unless I was literally sneaking up on the guy.

NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT.

Verbal commands, while sometimes appropriate in a lethal force situation are more practical in less lethal such as a physically resistive subject who after being tased is told to stay down or be tased again.


There is a time and a place for verbal commands, but not every time nor every place.

 

[Hitman]

It is so hard to put yourself in that situation and hypothesis what you would have done. Sitting here behind a keyboard in a safe environment, I might say I would have chosen NOT to engage if I had loved ones sitting next to me. I say that because their safety, not necessarily my own, is far and away my #1 concern. But do you wait to see if the shooter has fired his last round, or do you engage him (WITHOUT ALERTING HIM TO YOUR INTENTIONS) and put down the threat before waiting to see? I don't know, but the best case scenario would be that he leaves without harming anyone else, you keep yourself and family out of harms way, and let Law Enforcement take care of it. But, like I said, who knows what I would have done.

It's ok though, this is why we play these tactical decision games. This is training for our minds and is why I participate in them. This is the type of discussion where it's good to play keyboard commando. Run the situation through your head and jot it down here and find out whether or not your peers can penetrate your hypothesis. I've definitely had mine torn to pieces on here b/c of scenarios that I had not thought about. Anyone who thinks he knows what he would do and is not willing to let others attempt to test his hypothesis isn't really interested in training. I ain’t skeered , I throw my **** out there and if someone thinks it’s stupid that’s fine, show me, help me think better about the situation. I’m no Armed Citizen Ninja, but I’m no chump with a gun either and I’d like to think that my understanding of dangerous situations like this one and the confidence in how I’d react to them is due in part to discussing these scenarios in depth.

There’s a lot of talent and brains here on the site that comment regularly. From LSP to Local LEO’s to Military to CIV Firearm Instructors to Overseas Contractors. I try and lend an ear their direction whenever possible and there’s no better place to do it than a topic like this.

 

[Hitman]

There is no LAW requiring anyone, LEO or not, to give verbal commands.

However, MOST LEO are trained to draw and give verbal commands at the same time. the whole point of verbal commands is that they are a last ditch effort to not have to shoot.

Many times, things will happen so fast or be set up in such a way that verbal commands are not possible or practical (sniper hostage shot).

I can tell you right now, that from years of training, I am not sure I could stop myself if i wanted to from yelling "POLICE! Don't MOVE!", unless I was literally sneaking up on the guy.

NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT.

Verbal commands, while sometimes appropriate in a lethal force situation are more practical in less lethal such as a physically resistive subject who after being tased is told to stay down or be tased again.


There is a time and a place for verbal commands, but not every time nor every place.

rgr

 

[Cat]

Extremely plausaible theory and pretty much what I would have done with the addition of physically moving away from my party hopefully to available cover.


No legal requirement to use commands, though definitely beneficial from a "court" standpoint if the tactical environment allows for it. SOmetimes it does, and sometimes it does not.

Since now we are getting into the "purely hypothetical, cause we're bored and we'll beat the scenario to death" part of the discussion...

Wouldn't verbal cues also alert any plains clothed officers or other CHPers here? That has always been my curiosity in these situations. If you start shooting, you immediately turned it into a multiple shooter event with greater cause for confusion. I believe I could see a LEO bang! bang! both individuals out of sheer reaction. I'm sure LEOs are trained well but face it.... You really aren't expecting the diner chick to be shot dead after pouring your coffee. Swapping from condition mildly yellow to holy **** red, there is a second shooter.....

Eh. I dunno. just something I've always had in the back of my head... How to stay alive if everybody has a gun, and nobody knows what's going on exactly.

 

[Nolacopusmc]

Since now we are getting into the "purely hypothetical, cause we're bored and we'll beat the scenario to death" part of the discussion...

Wouldn't verbal cues also alert any plains clothed officers or other CHPers here? That has always been my curiosity in these situations. If you start shooting, you immediately turned it into a multiple shooter event with greater cause for confusion. I believe I could see a LEO bang! bang! both individuals out of sheer reaction. I'm sure LEOs are trained well but face it.... You really aren't expecting the diner chick to be shot dead after pouring your coffee. Swapping from condition mildly yellow to holy **** red, there is a second shooter.....

Eh. I dunno. just something I've always had in the back of my head... How to stay alive if everybody has a gun, and nobody knows what's going on exactly.

That is a good point.

When you look at the historical trend of common variables in these types of situations, you rarely hear the BG say, " Drop the gun!" "Get Down!"

Generally, if they say anything at all before firing, especially in domestic situations, it is either extremely personal in nature and directed at the intended victim in both tone and content, or it is meant to dominate the scene through shock and violence. "Get on the ground. All you MFers get down or I will blow your fcking head off" The latter you typically see in robberies.

Furthermore, the verbal commands, will draw attention to you before the shot. This fraction of time allows people to digest what is going on better than simply hearing a shot and then seeing you holding a gun.

Depending on how quickly you shoot him after he shot her, someone may turn around after hearing two shots, see you holding the gun BG on the ground, and think you just up and killed him. The verbal commands would get their OODA loop processing what is going on a little better.

that said, the "fog of battle" can make things, and most often does, seem unlike what they really are.


My practice and recommendation to my students is this... unless specifically advantageous not to do so or prohibited by circumstance, give loud, simple, authoritative verbal commands. Also, practice them. Literally, even if it is under your breath while on the range. In the absence of something prepared to say, you would be AMAZED at what comes out of people's mouth in just a little bit of stress like force on force.

I reccommeend for non-lwo " Stop. Drop the weapon."

If they do not have a weapon or are attacking you directly. " Stop. Get Back!"


Example:

"CAT! STOP! Do NOT REPLY UNLESS YOU HAVE HAD COFFEE!"

 

[Hitman]

Since now we are getting into the "purely hypothetical, cause we're bored and we'll beat the scenario to death" part of the discussion...

Wouldn't verbal cues also alert any plains clothed officers or other CHPers here? That has always been my curiosity in these situations. If you start shooting, you immediately turned it into a multiple shooter event with greater cause for confusion. I believe I could see a LEO bang! bang! both individuals out of sheer reaction. I'm sure LEOs are trained well but face it.... You really aren't expecting the diner chick to be shot dead after pouring your coffee. Swapping from condition mildly yellow to holy **** red, there is a second shooter.....

Eh. I dunno. just something I've always had in the back of my head... How to stay alive if everybody has a gun, and nobody knows what's going on exactly.

While you do have a good theory I'm just not confident in the plausibility of it happening.

For one thing every one in the diner knows for sure that the guy who just shot the waitress in the face is BAD, so who ever shoots that bad guy is probably good. Also I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the folks in the Diner automatically think YOU are the Off-Duty LEO to include the REAL Off-Duty LEO in the corner who didn't fire. Just an example

See my point? I think folks who carry guns are rational responsible people who have a better grasp on reality than most. There I give them more benefit of the doubt when it comes to figuring out who is good and who is bad in a situation like this.

To the clueless bone head who would think you are too a bad Guy with a gun, well I highly doubt a person thinking that would be carrying anyway so you should be able to control that situation too.

Also once cops show up your gun should be holstered.

 

[spanky]

What if a bunch of guys dressed in swat gear with "POLICE" on their shirts bust into the restaurant and you are legally OCing with a CHP within 1000' of a school zone? You know you can legally be there and they should not be infringing upon your right to eat some good ole home cooked seafood. Would/should/did/will/are you going to engage them since you don't KNOW they are police and they did not knock on the door?

 

[XD-GEM]

What if a bunch of guys dressed in swat gear with "POLICE" on their shirts bust into the restaurant and you are legally OCing with a CHP within 1000' of a school zone? You know you can legally be there and they should not be infringing upon your right to eat some good ole home cooked seafood. Would/should/did/will/are you going to engage them since you don't KNOW they are police and they did not knock on the door?

Did they bring any naked Swedish girls?

 

[LongGoneDays]

What if a bunch of guys dressed in swat gear with "POLICE" on their shirts bust into the restaurant and you are legally OCing with a CHP within 1000' of a school zone? You know you can legally be there and they should not be infringing upon your right to eat some good ole home cooked seafood. Would/should/did/will/are you going to engage them since you don't KNOW they are police and they did not knock on the door?

Trick question, because the OC prevents SWAT, fake or real.

 

[spanky]

Did they bring any naked Swedish girls?

Depends, are they considered porn?

 

[deafdave3]

On Wednesday, October 16, 1991, George Hennard drove his truck through a wall of windows of a Luby's restaurant and took two handguns and randomly started killing patrons. He did not announce ANYTHING before he started his massacre. He took the lives of 23 people before he was terminated.

The shooter at Landry's got into a verbal argument with a lady before shooting. It is probable that he may have ended his life immediately after he accomplished his mission, or he may have walked out of Landry's, given the chance. However, I also must agree with the CC holder in this case; he didn't know if the shooter suddenly"flipped" or if he was planning on leaving, but that is no a risk to take. I applaud the CCer's decision to give verbal commands as I doubt I would have been calm enough to do that.

On a side note, two of my friends here on BS know that restaurant shoot-outs such as this one is one of my biggest fears. If it had been me, I may have acted prematurely or I may have done exactly the right thing as the CCer did. But...... I don't think my .380 would have stopped this lunatic. I need more guns. :-)