Worth a look

[Hitman]

Well Blackhawk has sold millions of Serpa's. Millions of people use them daily and never shoot themselves.

Somehow the gun just can't fire unless you pull the trigger

I understand the unlike on the Serpa's but find there to be a huge lack in evidence when it comes to the holster causing an ND. Heck this guy didn't even blame the holster.

We can allude to possibilities all day long.

 

[spanky]

Seems you're correct, i can't find anything on their website about it.

I've never trained with them, but I'm pretty sure (100%) that they used to disallow them...you can google it and find plenty of people complaining. lol... maybe they changed their policy??

There was something on Yeager's FB about it a while back, iirc him and Gomez went to the Blackhawk headquarters or something of that nature.

 

[spanky]

Well Blackhawk has sold millions of Serpa's. Millions of people use them daily and never shoot themselves.

Somehow the gun just can't fire unless you pull the trigger

I understand the unlike on the Serpa's but find there to be a huge lack in evidence when it comes to the holster causing an ND. Heck this guy didn't even blame the holster.

We can allude to possibilities all day long.

In the video it's looks like he presses the release and his finger stays touching the holster as he's drawing after he didn't engage the holster release initially. Of course safety comes off too early but I would venture to guess had he not been required to manipulate the safety with his trigger finger in that specific instance at that specific time then it probably wouldn't have happened.

 

[Tulse Luper]

Serpa strikes again!

I think this is new from Paul:

http://www.teddytactical.com/Redesign/TeddyTalk/serpa.html

I know Gomez knew of at least two (maybe three) incidents with the side paddle lock. That's enough evidence for me. He has vastly more experience that most.

 

[Hitman]

In the video it's obvious he misses the release the first time, then presses it hard and his finger continues coming in as he's drawing. Of course safety comes off too early but I would venture to guess had he not been required to manipulate the safety with his trigger finger in that specific instance at that specific time then it probably wouldn't have happened.

Here's my issue;

The mechanism only has to be brushed lightly to release. It also DOES NOT require the tip of the trigger finger, the gun can be drawn with your finger STRAIGHT. Again NO NEED TO PRESS INWARD with tip of finger. Simply grabbing the holster with finger straight releases the firearm.

Owning a Serpa when they first came out I was concerned with the talk of this possibly being an issue. So I borrowed a Safariland from a pal and practiced drawing and shooting over and over again focusing more on my shot placement than what holster I was using. A friend and I even went as far as putting the two holsters on two different quick snap Duty Belts and without looking allowed the non-shooter to switch them back and forth between shooting groups changing up the order.

I could tell no difference. I drew and fired and re-holstered and only then could tell which holster I was wearing. Never upon the draw of the weapon could I really tell. Draw/Fire/Holster –No glitches.

Who teaches to draw with trigger finger curled inward? It’s not needed to release the gun from a Serpa Holster. Therefore it again sounds like a USER/TRAINING error rather than a product error.

IMO if you have in mind that it is a button that needs to be pressed then you might indeed press with your finger tip.

If anything the case MIGHT/MAYBE could be made that it's not a beginner holster. However to say that the Holster itself is flawed is just simply unwarranted.

Training fixes everything and inanimate objects can't be to blame.

 

[Hitman]

Serpa strikes again!

I think this is new from Paul:

http://www.teddytactical.com/Redesign/TeddyTalk/serpa.html

I know Gomez knew of at least two (maybe three) incidents with the side paddle lock. That's enough evidence for me. He has vastly more experience that most.

I like Paul's training regime and follow him here on the site. However in this case I have to rely more on my own experience and tests than someone else’s.

 

[SpeedRacer]

I can't blame the holster here. Sure, it may facilitate easier negligence, but fact is it still requires user negligence to cause problems. Safety disengaged too early + finger on trigger + light 1911 trigger = "Moooooommmmmmy!!!!"

Dude's just lucky he didn't hit his femoral.

 

[Hitman]

Here's what i do agree with;

Chris Rhines - THR post;

The SERPA holster is utterly unforgiving of mistakes. If you screw up with one, you will probably shoot yourself. It's much like appendix IWB carry, light triggers, condition 1 carry, and pistols without external safeties, in that respect.

The difference is that AIWB holsters, light triggers, C1 carry, et al., all provide a measurable advantage to the shooter. The SERPA does nothing that the Safariland ALS and the Blade-Tech 5.11 Thumb Drive don't do better...

-C

 

[swamper]

I think the guy had some momentary confusion between the two holsters he was utilizing that day. The Serpa mechanism, confusion, and the weak hand defensive move seem to tie into this happening, imo. That confusion and the sympathetic response that translated from the defensive move of the weak hand to the trigger hand caused the discharge to occur.

 

[spanky]

I'm not saying it's the Serpa's fault. I'm saying if it wasn't a Serpa it might not have happened.

 

[Hitman]

I'm not saying it's the Serpa's fault. I'm saying if it wasn't a Serpa it might not have happened.

lol well that's not a broad statement

could be true nonetheless

 

[Sin-ster]

I'm not saying it's the Kimber's fault. I'm saying if it wasn't a Kimber it might not have happened.

FIFY-- for the lulz.

I just replaced a LOT of SERPAS in my own collection of gear, for a host of different reasons. Potential ND "caused" by the holster was not one of them.

I've performed several thousand drawstrokes with several different weapons out of an L2 Serpa; the vast majority were of a striker fired pistol with an extremely light trigger press. A large number were with a hot gun; a large portion of those were under stress, either in a class or (more commonly) during competition. I've never once managed to stick my finger in the trigger guard until the appropriate time as a result. And indeed, under time/stress, I've missed the lock and had a "press-jerk" recovery motion to get the gun up and out of the holster.

I think we're probably all on the same page here. They don't directly cause problems-- they make it easier and more likely that improper technique will become a problem. Most importantly, as the post Hitman quoted claims, there's really not advantages offered by the design. And that's why I've replaced them-- not because I was afraid of an ND while using one.

 

[lovetoshoot82]

Some people shouldnt own guns!!

I looked to see if this video was posted before and I couldnt find it, sorry if it was already posted.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2bd_1309966583

 

[eagle359]

Serpa holster?

 

[Sin-ster]

http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?61247-Worth-a-look

So yeah,

And I'm willing to bet I'd trust that guy with a gun more than most people. Not to mention the only person in danger at any time was himself.

If anything, I'd title this thread, "Why novice shooters shouldn't carry 1911's."

 

[Yrdawg]

Serpa holster?

If not it missed a cood chance...looked like his finger was trying to press the holster as he came out...good commentary BTW

I think thats what I'll say if it ever happens to me

 

[James Cannon]

This is nothing about his gun, his gear, his anything owned.

This is about him being a retard and trying to go all cowboy, going too fast before he was ready.

 

[James Cannon]

I don't get the Serpa hate. I used one for USPSA a couple matches, and practiced with it before hand, of course. I found that I had NO trouble using the pad of my digit to depress the button rather than the tip. I found that natural movement during the draw, after depressing the button, resulted in my finger being laid flat against the frame of my pistol once it cleared the holster, where it should go, and not in the trigger guard like some people assume will happen - resulting in an AD (intentional use of AD)

I normally stay out of the "SERPAS KILL PEOPLE" arguments, because I'm ok with them killing people. Obviously a person who manages to shoot their self during a draw from a Serpa holster is too stupid to own and use guns safely, and I will not miss them. i.e., the tard in the video in the first post.

The biggest problems I have are with the people lauding his "owning" of his mistake and saying he's a "champion" for posting the video, etc etc.

People applaud him for identifying his mistake. That guy didn't even IDENTIFY his mistake. It wasn't training, or bad habits because of a different holster. That had nothing to do with it. It's because he's too damned stupid to take his time, he's too immature of brain, impulsive, and gung-ho-commando to bother going SLOW for as long as it takes to be smooth and effortless with his drills. He is the typical immature hot blooded impatient "want results now" type of shooter that wants to walk up to a target, and immediately go as fast as his chubby lardbody lets him, without regard to safety, repetition, muscle memory, practice, and repetition.

The only thing that should follow someone who commits a negligent discharge is derision, shame, and condemnation for not being able to safely handle their LETHAL WEAPON in such a manner that he ISN'T a danger to his life and the lives of those around him. If he regarded the mistake in any of the ways I mentioned it should be regarded, he would have never posted a Youtube video.

To do otherwise is to downplay the seriousness and utter FAILURE and THREAT he posed by trying to play cowboy and going WAY faster than his training allowed him to go. I can't help but think that all the "d'awwww he's a CHAMPION" posts only serve to drive ACCEPTANCE that NDs DO happen into the crowd of bystanders and spectators. That's the OPPOSITE of the goal here. NDs should _NOT_ _EVER_ _FREAKING_ _HAPPEN_. Period.

You walk before you run, you crawl before you walk. You don't start out sprinting and then just hope the rest of the **** falls in line. There's a reason you don't start your drills at 100% speed the first time. It's because you need to get the exact mechanics down until they are muscle memory before you even DARE to start playing Johnny Texas Quickdraw with your 1911.

If you're doing it right, an ND -can't- happen to you. That's my point. Guns don't magically go off on their own, and "accidents <don't> happen" when it comes to guns. They fire when not intended to because 99.99% of the time, some retard pulled the trigger at the wrong time.

No excuses. No "it's ok, I owned up to it". No "good job for admitting it.

 

[James Cannon]

Also, I don't much care about his premature disengagement of the safety. That's a NON issue. My M&P doesn't HAVE an external safety. It fires when I pull the trigger, and the trigger isn't much heavier-on-the-pull than my dad's Colt 1911 series 70 OR series 80. The safety is a non issue. It's a red herring.

(sorry for the long rant. crap on the net like this pisses me off. doubly so when it gets positive/supporting commentary)

 

[James Cannon]

I like Paul's training regime and follow him here on the site. However in this case I have to rely more on my own experience and tests than someone else’s.

I did not read the article, but from the comments about the holster failing, I assume these are cases of people having the locking mechanism jam with debris/gravel/dirt and render the firearm unable to be drawn? That's enough for me to not rock a Serpa for real use, or when time is critical like in a class I am paying a lot of money to train at, where I don't -want- to be out of the game to troubleshoot and fix my gear, or even just quickly grab the backup holster.

If I ever wanted an active retention holster, I'd likely just go to the thumb break, but I am not one that sees the need for such retention.

I'll never talk bad about Serpa because the button somehow ENCOURAGES people to lose their minds and finger bang their gun before it's on target, however.