List of gun owners in the US?

[Gator 45/70]

My mistake, I have a total of 2 infractions and they never go away so I assumed they were both at that time. And it does say that those rules are open to interpretation by the mods, so you can say I broke the rule no matter my explanation and disbelief of having done anything wrong, for all the harm I caused by informing people. I’ve never called anyone an idiot on here. And that’s against the rules.

Ooooh,You got 2 infractions,Ooooh 1 more and you have to go to the principals office for a spank'n.....Ooooh...Ooooh


lol

 

[thperez1972]

My mistake, I have a total of 2 infractions and they never go away so I assumed they were both at that time. And it does say that those rules are open to interpretation by the mods, so you can say I broke the rule no matter my explanation and disbelief of having done anything wrong, for all the harm I caused by informing people. I’ve never called anyone an idiot on here. And that’s against the rules.

I understood your explanation. You wanted people to know that the laser might not get sold and may be available on the next day. Your explanation didn't change what happened. But the second part is more telling. Your disbelief of having done anything wrong. Because you don't make mistakes here. So anyone who says otherwise must be out to get you. But in reality, that's not the case.

But to add to the story. Here's a better timeline of what happened.

7:04 - you edited the original add to change the prefix to SPF
7:06 - you bumped the SPF ad to let people know the items may not be available the following day
8:24 - you got a warning
9:29 - you bumped the SPF ad again with the same information
9:45 - you got an infraction
9:59 - you changed the prefix of the ad to WTS
11:25 - you bumped the WTS ad

You indicated the laser might be sold when you said it MAY be available the next day and when you changed the ad to SPF. When you changed it back to a WTS ad and bumped it, I assumed the deal fell through and it was available. You didn't get a warning or an infraction because none was warranted at that time. And because it was never personal on my end.

 

[Magdump]

I understood your explanation. You wanted people to know that the laser might not get sold and may be available on the next day. Your explanation didn't change what happened. But the second part is more telling. Your disbelief of having done anything wrong. Because you don't make mistakes here. So anyone who says otherwise must be out to get you. But in reality, that's not the case.

But to add to the story. Here's a better timeline of what happened.

7:04 - you edited the original add to change the prefix to SPF
7:06 - you bumped the SPF ad to let people know the items may not be available the following day
8:24 - you got a warning
9:29 - you bumped the SPF ad again with the same information
9:45 - you got an infraction
9:59 - you changed the prefix of the ad to WTS
11:25 - you bumped the WTS ad

You indicated the laser might be sold when you said it MAY be available the next day and when you changed the ad to SPF. When you changed it back to a WTS ad and bumped it, I assumed the deal fell through and it was available. You didn't get a warning or an infraction because none was warranted at that time. And because it was never personal on my end.

And you showed me didn’t you. Lol

 

[thperez1972]

That seems like a pretty legit explanation above by perez, first a warning then the actual infraction for 2nd re-posting. I too caught a warning a few weeks ago in the classifieds for for a second post within 24 hours, same thread but i didn't ignore the warning and repeat. It was a classified rules brain fart on my part.

For the record, I didn't give you that warning. And the warning wasn't for a second post the same day. It was for bumping your ad to let people know there may be nothing available in your ad.

SPF....getting a lot of interest in these. No more PMs for now. Guys are lined up right now.

 

[thperez1972]

And you showed me didn’t you. Lol

Yes. I showed you I will give you a warning or infraction when it's warranted and I won't when it's not.

 

[AustinBR]

And that is your perception. You are not completely objective as you are a party in the discussion. We all have a perception of any statement or comment. One guy may "perceive" the same statement completely different that another guy. Its especially challenging to decipher connotation in a typed comment. Not the same as face to face dialog by any means.

I'm not gonna sit here and argue the point with you ad nauseum. Why did Motor51 just make the very recent statement that your comments (make that you and ur buddy) on Magdump posts frequently turn into a **** storm? And that is his perception, and he is objective to the specific discussion, not involved in it before his post.

The purpose of this forum is to have discussion of firearms and more. Healthy positive discussion. There are no stupid questions, and yes sometimes people are incorrect in their responses/posts. Hopefully they learn from their time on the forum. And there is nothing wrong with correction, discussion, and proving your point. But belittling others with derogatory comments, or suggestive negative comments is just plain wrong. Hey sometimes i am tested by what I feel is just ignorance in a post, but you have to use restraint.

You can best believe out of some 27,000 members on BS, many are intimidated to post a question or comment because they don't want to get "beat up" by "the local experts" here.

And further, your job as a moderator is not just to police the forum for bad behaviors/actors, rule violations, trolls, or spam, but to encourage a healthy, positive, and friendly discussion environment. To encourage engagement by its members. Austin is really good at that. Clearly you are a smart guy and well versed on firearms related material/info/experience/discussion, that is obvious. Just my opinion as i see it.

And that last temp ban I drew from you, I deserved it. I was way out of line, personal attack. I own it.

BS is a really cool and informative forum, but it could be better.

Aww thanks, at least someone appreciates me! It's a tough job, and it's tough to try to play nice when some people just want to constantly pee in the pool.

All I can say to that is, you gave me 2 infractions for the same for sale thread where I bumped it to say what was left but you said I was bumping it to say what was sold, the same day I found you’d bumped your for sale ad like 11 hours early? Or is it not on a 24 hour clock?

The rule isn't 24 hours. It's per day. And it's enforced rather loosely and benefit of the doubt is usually given.

I got 2 infractions about an hour apart. In between the two was our PM conversation where I explained to you that I was trying to let folks know that hey, I might be selling this pistol tonight, but the laser may still be available. So yes, I did take it personally. I thought 2 infractions in an hour for the same thread when I’m trying to clarify was personal.
Glad to know I no longer have to wait 24 hours to bump a post tho.

If this bothered you, why didn't you escalate it up me or puritanize? We are rather impartial, ya know.

And you showed me didn’t you. Lol

Really? Must you act like this?

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[Magdump]

Nice to see the cake finally got the icing. I hate when things are left undone

 

[jdindadell]

Back to the thread..

As far a list of gun owners go... Well the NCIS would be a good place to start to figure out if a certain person was a gun owner.

Say a guy named Bernie Sanders (fictitious name I just made up) went into Bass Pro (cause he is rich and can afford their prices) and bought one of those cool blue shiny Kimber 45s. He would fill out the 4473 and it would get phoned/computered in. He passes (he is not a felon, yet), pays, and walks out with the gun.

So the feds know he passed a BG check, and they know who sent that BG check in, Bass Pro. So they get their brothers over at the ATF to call Bass Pro, and due to Bass Pro having a ffl, they have to divulge all of the info they have to the ATF. The ATF has a Mr Sanders name and the date, and Bass Pro has a searchable index of gun sales that they can use to find the rest of the info, gun type, serial number, etc.

This would be an example of the DECENTRALIZED gun registration that we currently enjoy.

As noted, Mr Sanders could easily sell the slick blue Kimber 45 to anyone he pleases (unless there are rabbits involved). At that point he would not have the gun, and from what I can tell he would also not be burdened with any responsibility to maintain a record of who he sold it to. Not 100% on that part, so I may be wrong.

So the Current Decentralized registration system in place is not 100%, and as noted the "closing of the gun show loophole" via mandatory BG check for all transactions would fix that. Likey why that topic is always brought up, not for public safety reasons.

However, as I am sure many here have done, someone with a list of 20 plus BG checks likely still has 1 or more of those guns, and I am sure the list can be ordered to reflect these possibilities. So if they plan to search out gun owners and collect up said guns, they have a damn good head start with the info gathering portion of that task.

Credit card statements could also be searched, on a case by case basis (or maybe even en mass), and I am sure that online activity as a whole could be gathered and viewed, pics, posts, replies, etc. All used to build a profile to determine gun owners.

Maybe I am full of it, or maybe I am onto something.

 

[DAVE_M]

Nice to see the cake finally got the icing. I hate when things are left undone

Oh wait, hang on, lemme find a good seat...

Back to the thread..

As far a list of gun owners go... Well the NCIS would be a good place to start to figure out if a certain person was a gun owner.

Say a guy named Bernie Sanders (fictitious name I just made up) went into Bass Pro (cause he is rich and can afford their prices) and bought one of those cool blue shiny Kimber 45s. He would fill out the 4473 and it would get phoned/computered in. He passes (he is not a felon, yet), pays, and walks out with the gun.

So the feds know he passed a BG check, and they know who sent that BG check in, Bass Pro. So they get their brothers over at the ATF to call Bass Pro, and due to Bass Pro having a ffl, they have to divulge all of the info they have to the ATF. The ATF has a Mr Sanders name and the date, and Bass Pro has a searchable index of gun sales that they can use to find the rest of the info, gun type, serial number, etc.

This would be an example of the DECENTRALIZED gun registration that we currently enjoy.

As noted, Mr Sanders could easily sell the slick blue Kimber 45 to anyone he pleases (unless there are rabbits involved). At that point he would not have the gun, and from what I can tell he would also not be burdened with any responsibility to maintain a record of who he sold it to. Not 100% on that part, so I may be wrong.

So the Current Decentralized registration system in place is not 100%, and as noted the "closing of the gun show loophole" via mandatory BG check for all transactions would fix that. Likey why that topic is always brought up, not for public safety reasons.

However, as I am sure many here have done, someone with a list of 20 plus BG checks likely still has 1 or more of those guns, and I am sure the list can be ordered to reflect these possibilities. So if they plan to search out gun owners and collect up said guns, they have a damn good head start with the info gathering portion of that task.

Credit card statements could also be searched, on a case by case basis (or maybe even en mass), and I am sure that online activity as a whole could be gathered and viewed, pics, posts, replies, etc. All used to build a profile to determine gun owners.

Maybe I am full of it, or maybe I am onto something.

FWIW, the 4473 is a transfer record. If it's being used as a list of gun owners, it's being done very poorly. I have bought firearms from FFL's and sold them, lawfully, later on. There is no record of when and who I sold them to unless someone could look up long deleted Bayoushooter messages.

 

[thperez1972]

Maybe I am full of it, or maybe I am onto something.

Maybe you’re somewhere in the middle. There are a few points made along the way that you didn’t address in your scenario that would decrease the probability that your scenario is what’s going on.


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[Magdump]

Data collection. Like Snowden exposed, it’s already there, ready and waiting to be accessed. Companies admit it now. They keep your info, sell your info. Anybody know what info that is? Everything that you provide and everything that transpires in any transaction unless it’s only written in a receipt book and never entered into the digital world at any time. Nearly every 40 page + I agree statement we sign gives them the ok to do so. I get a big laugh when people deny the obvious, especially when it comes to trusting that corporations and government will adhere to laws. Oh my God how funny that is. When history (all the way up to today) has proven that they will completely ignore the law whenever it suits them.
If it were only something written on a piece of paper I’d say logistically, it would be impossible, but the vast majority of info, including make and model, is electronically stored.

This is funny

https://youtu.be/270sLN5WL2I

 

[thperez1972]

Data collection. Like Snowden exposed, it’s already there, ready and waiting to be accessed. Companies admit it now. They keep your info, sell your info. Anybody know what info that is? Everything that you provide and everything that transpires in any transaction unless it’s only written in a receipt book and never entered into the digital world at any time. Nearly every 40 page + I agree statement we sign gives them the ok to do so. I get a big laugh when people deny the obvious, especially when it comes to trusting that corporations and government will adhere to laws. Oh my God how funny that is. When history (all the way up to today) has proven that they will completely ignore the law whenever it suits them.
If it were only something written on a piece of paper I’d say logistically, it would be impossible, but the vast majority of info, including make and model, is electronically stored.

Yes, data collection is out there. I don't know of anyone who has said otherwise. There are, however, people who are saying the probability of the federal government having access to all of that information and storing it in some central location is very small, especially when you factor in the number of people, both in the government and in private companies, who would necessarily have to know the data is being collected. Snowden showed us that bringing humans into the equation makes it unpredictable. The more humans involved, the more unpredictable the situation, the less likely that scenario currently exists.

Unless you can say with 100% certainty that the federal government has a list of gun owners and the guns they have purchased, you are forced be open to the possibility that the secret list does not exist.

 

[Gator 45/70]

Data collection. Like Snowden exposed, it’s already there, ready and waiting to be accessed. Companies admit it now. They keep your info, sell your info. Anybody know what info that is? Everything that you provide and everything that transpires in any transaction unless it’s only written in a receipt book and never entered into the digital world at any time. Nearly every 40 page + I agree statement we sign gives them the ok to do so. I get a big laugh when people deny the obvious, especially when it comes to trusting that corporations and government will adhere to laws. Oh my God how funny that is. When history (all the way up to today) has proven that they will completely ignore the law whenever it suits them.
If it were only something written on a piece of paper I’d say logistically, it would be impossible, but the vast majority of info, including make and model, is electronically stored.

This is funny

https://youtu.be/270sLN5WL2I

Even Doomberg has people cruising these gun sites taking notes...and...the biggest thing is recording serial numbers of posted firearms for sale

There's a war on gun owners from every side..Best advice I can give is hide that serial number if posting pictures !

 

[Bangswitch]

Even Doomberg has people cruising these gun sites taking notes...and...the biggest thing is recording serial numbers of posted firearms for sale

There's a war on gun owners from every side..Best advice I can give is hide that serial number if posting pictures !

What additional useful information becomes available when they get serial numbers? If you post a high point for sale and I reply I want it and we set up a deal. They know I bought a high point from you why would they care what the serial number is, unless it has a criminal past or future.

 

[340six]

I can tell you from real life that any regular guy does not have to worry. But if they want the info it is there 100% That's a fact. But why bring facts into it

 

[MOTOR51]

FWIW, the 4473 is a transfer record. If it's being used as a list of gun owners, it's being done very poorly. I have bought firearms from FFL's and sold them, lawfully, later on. There is no record of when and who I sold them to unless someone could look up long deleted Bayoushooter messages.

What about the email from BS saying you got a message. Those last a little longer


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[Magdump]

Unless you can say with 100% certainty that the federal government has a list of gun owners and the guns they have purchased, you are forced be open to the possibility that the secret list does not exist.

Lol, but it can’t work the other way around?
I keep seeing the same theme, and that’s the belief that it’s all gotta be picked and parceled into one location. It’s already there. It’s about access. Who believes the government does not or cannot gain access at will? And if they wanted to or if they are already in the process of storing that information in one location they very well could. What are they storing and compiling at the UDC? They’ve already stated that it could hold virtually all the digital info on the planet. Maybe there were so many jihadi’s that they filled it up already. That’s NSA, I know, not the ATF or FBI....oh wait, separate government agencies working together on the same task? Could that happen? The FBI has the data base and OK’s the transfers? But the ATF regulates firearms...
I guess if we all found out tomorrow that they do indeed have it all on record, some would just say that there’s nothing we can do about it anyway, so why worry? Not trying to be chicken little, just saying that it’s a very real possibility. I didn’t write the article in the OP, but I believe it has merit. And when you talk about 100% certainty and absolutes, let me just say I also believe it’s more probable than not.

 

[Magdump]

What about the email from BS saying you got a message. Those last a little longer


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or what Dave might be saying is, just because there’s proof out there that you bought a gun at some point, does not mean you would ever be considered a gun owner if you can say you sold it. So there’s no way you could wind up on a list of gun owners.

 

[thperez1972]

Lol, but it can’t work the other way around?

That's already been covered by me and ignored by you.

No, I cannot say that with 100% certainty in much the same way you cannot say with 100% certainty that the info is definitely stored. Since we are not dealing with absolutes, we must deal with probabilities. Your scenario makes a number of assumptions. You're assuming that the government has hacked the credit card companies or that the credit card companies are feeding the information for every transaction to the government. Not just the credit card transactions but also any debit card transaction. So banks would either need to be in on it as well or they would all be victims of hacking. And the transaction information would need to be itemized to increase the probability the information is accurate. Otherwise, your stripped lower purchase after an approval would look the same as my ammo purchase after an approval. And all this would have to happen without anyone in the government, at the credit card companies, or at any of the banks leaking the information. Do you think all that is more probable than the government isn't tracing the information?

I keep seeing the same theme, and that’s the belief that it’s all gotta be picked and parceled into one location. It’s already there.

At what single location is all the info stored?

It’s about access. Who believes the government does not or cannot gain access at will? And if they wanted to or if they are already in the process of storing that information in one location they very well could.

Wait...is it already stored, is it in the process of being stored, or do they just have the ability to store it. It appears you are making multiple, contradictory claims.

What are they storing and compiling at the UDC?

Term papers?

They’ve already stated that it could hold virtually all the digital info on the planet. Maybe there were so many jihadi’s that they filled it up already. That’s NSA, I know, not the ATF or FBI....oh wait, separate government agencies working together on the same task? Could that happen? The FBI has the data base and OK’s the transfers? But the ATF regulates firearms...

Yes, two separate agencies have separate tasks that each involve firearms. And how exactly does that prove the NSA has the super secret list?

I guess if we all found out tomorrow that they do indeed have it all on record, some would just say that there’s nothing we can do about it anyway, so why worry? Not trying to be chicken little, just saying that it’s a very real possibility. I didn’t write the article in the OP, but I believe it has merit. And when you talk about 100% certainty and absolutes, let me just say I also believe it’s more probable than not.[/QUOTE]

Well there you go. You believe it's more probable than not that this super secret list exists. But you believe there's a possibility it doesn't exist at all. Is that accurate?

 

[Gator 45/70]

What additional useful information becomes available when they get serial numbers? If you post a high point for sale and I reply I want it and we set up a deal. They know I bought a high point from you why would they care what the serial number is, unless it has a criminal past or future.

They are hardcore liberals,I believe they are making files on everyone on the gun boards,What they have and brag about,Things like that
Trying to figure out a liberal is harder than trying to figure out a woman, Women are only crazy for 4/5 days a month,Then they calm down around age 50 or so
Liberals are 24/7 Karen's,
Bat $hit crazy control freak's.