A new wrinkle in home defense planning

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  • billy82269

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    Aug 3, 2008
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    Well. a new wrinkle for me anyway, some of you may have already thought of this. I believe that due to a couple very likely things, economic depression and the colapse of mexico we will be looking at a new threat, Home Invasions by armed gangs. Things may not ever get so bad that we are in another civil war or a mad max EOTWAWKI where my full sized battle rifles would be of much use. I am starting to see a possibilty that we would more likely see things in the US like in 3rd world latin american countries now, at least for a good while at first. The .gov may be able to keep basic infrastructure up but for everything else we are on our own, crime so bad that local police stop even trying to enforce the law and just pick up the pieces in the aftermath. I have probably the same home protection firearm that a lot of people do, an 870 riot gun by my bed. I have always thought this to be plenty enough fire power. the standard break-in now a days is one to two people unarmed or lightly armed, but is it enough when 3 or more heavily armed perps becomes the norm? Do I want a manually operated 5 shot weapon in that case? My answer is now NO. You need a Home Defense Rifle, something HIGH capacity with a high volume of fire to drive them back to where they came from. It needs to be compact and easy to hit with under stress. The best option would be an M4 type carbine or maybe an ak. Those are the standard answer most would have for the best survival rifle also. There are other choices though. I guess what I am saying is that there are some choices that you would not recomend as a survival rifle due to range limitations, or not being as rugged as these proven combat rifles, but these choices are perfectly good for home defense. I have a full size battle rifles and tons of ammo for them as my survival rifle, and I always thought my 870 and glock was enough for any home defense. I am not going to change my battle rifle but for home defense I now know I need something else. I am looking right now at the keltec sub 2000. They are fairly cheap, Reliable or can be made to be if you get a bad one, very compact for CQC, could lay down a high volume of fire if need be with the long extended glock mags and they should be easy to hit with at close range especially if you put a laser on it for night fire.
     

    Speedlace

    LOL...right?
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    Home Invasions by armed gangs. Things may not ever get so bad that we are in another civil war or a mad max EOTWAWKI where my full sized battle rifles would be of much use. I am starting to see a possibilty that we would more likely see things in the US like in 3rd world latin american countries now, at least for a good while at first. The .gov may be able to keep basic infrastructure up but for everything else we are on our own, crime so bad that local police stop even trying to enforce the law and just pick up the pieces in the aftermath. I have probably the same home protection firearm that a lot of people do, an 870 riot gun by my bed. I have always thought this to be plenty enough fire power. the standard break-in now a days is one to two people unarmed or lightly armed, but is it enough when 3 or more heavily armed perps becomes the norm?
    The people that are making home invasions aren't battle hardened soldiers willing to sacrifice themselves to take ground, much less take some property or money they will never see if they continue their attack.
    Do I want a manually operated 5 shot weapon in that case? My answer is now NO.
    As soon as they meet armed resistance they will turn tail. You blast the first person that enters your home or tries to enter your home with buckshot/slug the other 3 will run.
    The 5 shot pump with suffice.

    :)
     
    Last edited:

    SpeedRacer

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    ^ I agree.

    Also, if we ever got to the point of armed gangs roving the streets invading homes, I won't be home anyway. I'll be far away from any city.

    billy, you are on the right path though. There's a lot of reasons to get a home defense rifle, and either an AK or AR would serve you well. For your purposes, I'd recommend a Yugo AK Underfolder.

    akunderwood.jpg


    Just IMHO, I would never trust my family's protection against a gang of armed thugs to a Keltec.
     

    dantheman

    I despise ARFCOM
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    I'm starting to think that my .30 cal Carbine would be a pretty decent home defense weapon . It's light , 6 lbs. or so , compact , with a 15 rd. capacity . Light recoil .
    Great gun for my wife to use .
     

    billy82269

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    I think your right Dan, it would be ideal with 110grn. softpoints and a red dot or laser for low light. My problem right this second is funds, I have thought of the m-1 carbine, I can't really afford a GI surplus right now but I have seen Plainfield models going for around $400 to $450 on gunbroker and auctionarms. Plainfields are suppose to be true comercial copies of the carbine made in the 60s for the police market. They are all GI parts compatible and even use mostly GI parts. They're suppose to be way superior to Universals.
     

    LACamper

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    Its very hard to balance powerful enough vs too powerful that will overpenetrate and kill my neighbors.

    Speedlace is right in that the way things are now criminals do not want to risk dealing with armed resistance. As the economy worsens and criminal activity increases it is likely they will become more bold. At first they will attack the unarmed looking for easy prey. On the other hand, just obtaining your weapons may cause them to decide it is worth the risk.
    Were the situation to worsen rapidly rather than gradually there is another issue. We have in this country 20 million+ illegal immigrants. They can't go buy a weapon at a gun shop, nor can ex-cons. People selling guns in the paper may not sell to someone that doesn't speak English or have a license. The guns that are for sale in the worse neighborhoods will dry up quickly. Guns will become a high theft target item.

    If you haven't read about the problems in Argentina in 2001, you need to.
    http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=044387;p=1

    Any semiauto long gun would be a step up from the shotgun were we to end up in a situation like that. A keltec sub2000 (or any 9mm sub gun) increases 9mm velocity and puts into a similar power level of say, a .357. 30 carbine would be a good choice if the guns weren't so expensive now. If you're on a budget, keltec makes a .223 at a reasonable price or you can look for a Ruger mini-14.
    Another good choice, if you can find one at a reasonable price, is a Marlin .357 lever action. 10 rounds of .357 would make a good home defense gun but is likely to avoid the 'black rifle' stigma...
     

    nola_

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    I would trust my life with this Kel-Tec. I "heard" a green laser or another "accessory" mounted underneath is good for quick aiming

     

    billy82269

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    You seem to be thinking very close to the way I am LACamper, That link is good info. I had read a little of it quite some time ago. Thank you very much, I am glad to have access to the info again. Right now the sub 2000 is looking good due to price or a used plainfield carbine, Mini-14s have gotten expensive, the su-16 have even gone up quite a bit from what they once cost. AKs are very high right now but in the same price range as the Mini-14 or the SU-16. i don't know about the pistol cal. lever action. it is alot of actions to perform under stress. My Dad hunted deer with dogs alot when he was younger and tells the story of an experienced hunter he hunted with one day. A big buck jumped out in front of him and he threw his 30-30 to his shoulder and started shifting. He unloaded his gun on the deer, only problem is he didn't even pull the trigger once. LOL Too many steps to firing so in his buck fever he forgets the most important step. Combat is alot more stressful than buck fever.
     

    #1bambam

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    The Nasty New Orleans.
    ^ I agree.

    Also, if we ever got to the point of armed gangs roving the streets invading homes, I won't be home anyway. I'll be far away from any city.

    billy, you are on the right path though. There's a lot of reasons to get a home defense rifle, and either an AK or AR would serve you well. For your purposes, I'd recommend a Yugo AK Underfolder.

    akunderwood.jpg


    Just IMHO, I would never trust my family's protection against a gang of armed thugs to a Keltec.

    LOL. Thats a polish one.But I do agree that the AK underfolder is a great home defence gun.
     

    LACamper

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    You seem to be thinking very close to the way I am LACamper, That link is good info. I had read a little of it quite some time ago. Thank you very much, I am glad to have access to the info again. Right now the sub 2000 is looking good due to price or a used plainfield carbine, Mini-14s have gotten expensive, the su-16 have even gone up quite a bit from what they once cost. AKs are very high right now but in the same price range as the Mini-14 or the SU-16. i don't know about the pistol cal. lever action. it is alot of actions to perform under stress. My Dad hunted deer with dogs alot when he was younger and tells the story of an experienced hunter he hunted with one day. A big buck jumped out in front of him and he threw his 30-30 to his shoulder and started shifting. He unloaded his gun on the deer, only problem is he didn't even pull the trigger once. LOL Too many steps to firing so in his buck fever he forgets the most important step. Combat is alot more stressful than buck fever.

    I saw a su-16 and a sub2000 in the used rack at Shooter's Club recently. The Sub2000 was set up for glock mags IIRC (I'd like one that takes the s&w mags to match my 469). Don't hold me to this but I think they were asking 450 for the su16 and 350ish for the sub2000. They had a couple of HK P7M8's also if anyone was interested (nice but too much money right now- 950+).
     

    LACamper

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    I dunno guys. Last time I was at the BZ there were two AK's down and out. I had to go get a hammer out my truck to work on one of them! My Keltec was running fine... :)
     

    Nomad.2nd

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    Guy I know, (Retired SSGT) Thought a 870 was adequate for home defense too.


    Till a 'Motercycle Club' bought the house at the only enterance/exit of his (Rural) road...

    He got an AK!:D


    Actually, depending on where you live this might be one of the VERY few times I recomend an AR, as the .223 has very poor penatration capabilities it might be what you want from a liability standpoint.

    lthough IIRC Red Jacket has that .223 Saiga to AR mag conversion....:D
     

    nickatnite

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    As soon as they meet armed resistance they will turn tail. You blast the first person that enters your home or tries to enter your home with buckshot/slug the other 3 will run.
    The 5 shot pump with suffice.

    :)

    I recently watched a Thunder Ranch video on home defense with a shotgun, and I tell ya, even at 7 yds (21 feet) I wouldn't even want to be hit with #7 bird shot, much less #4 or 000 buckshot!
     

    jimdana1942

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    I think that the very large urban areas will be taken over by gangs. That is where they are currently ganged up in large numbers. Next, The adjacent areas next to the urban area might experience forays by the gangs. Those who live in smaller cities and communities less so. Way out in rural areas probably won't have the gangs but may have to deal with those around their area that were not prepared but have a gun or two to raid your food pantry.

    I think you need a Military rifle (semi), a good 12 or 20 gauge pump, and a good large caliber handgun and plenty of ammo for each. Nothing deadlier than a shotgun for home defense.
     

    LACamper

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    I noticed that Glazer came out with their safety slug in .223. I'm leary of using an ammo for defense that I can't run at least 50 rounds through my gun, but I'm temped, for my neighbors sake.
     

    CajunTim

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    I have a firearm in each corner of the master bedroom and a pistol on the window sill. The wife is making me get a safe with any tax return we may get.
     

    flamatrix99

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    Ihave handguns and a shot gun in the bedroom plus AK and AR in the closet. I would be hard pressed to use the rifles since we live in a subdivision.
     

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