Abortion doctor Gun Downed
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senseiturtle
Well-Known Member
I feel that I need to clear a few things up, and I'm in a unique position to do so.
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#1) If an abortion clinic hands out birth control pills, then several things must happen. First, the pill must be FDA approved for the usage, which requires rigorous potency and efficacy tests. Second, it must be prescribed by a physician. Thirdly, if a substance is knowingly prescribed with the expectation of treatment failure, in order to illicit more services, that is malpractice.
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#2) The mechanism of action for the vast majority of oral contraceptives involve PREVENTING CONCEPTION in the first place. Providing exogenous hormone results in a "dependent negative feedback loop," which essentially "locks" the female's cycle in a post-ovulatory state. Ovulation does not occur, so no egg is released. This is the consensus, and this is how I was taught in medical school.
If you're curious, wiki explains it well. Wiki does briefly reference the "alternate hypothesized theory" of being an anti-implantation mechanism, but note that the animal models currently do not support this mechanism of action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_oral_contraceptive_pill#Mechanism_of_action
If you prevent conception, then that excludes the most common form of birth control as an abortificant. This of course, completely pisses off the religious sect, as they look to directly tie the issues of contraception and abortion together as one and the same. Lumping them together makes it easier to preach against.
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#3) I understand that abortion is a direct violation of the Hippocratic Oath, the same Oath I took right after I put on my white coat for the first time.But here's where things get complicated.
16y/o female presents with extreme flank pain with vaginal bleeding. Ultrasound reveals an ectopic pregnancy in the left fallopian tube, which completely blocks the tube. The ONLY thing to do is surgically remove it... otherwise, you risk the mother's life. The fetus WILL die, as there isn't sufficient blood supply in the fallopian tube to support it. If you let it sit there, it will become necrotic, septic, and a huge mess for the internists and surgeons.
In this advanced case illustrated, excision of the whole conceptus is the ONLY option (unless smaller, then methotrexate and some anti-cancer drugs will do it). At this point, does it qualify as "medicine"? Does it violate the Oath? Is it a "sin" ? That's between you, your God, and your church.
And people want to complicate this by making it illegal?
Oh boy... here we go... now I have to answer to the woman, to God, AND the federal government who will certainly make my life hell to "ensure I was following the law."
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#4) Regardless of the morality of the issue, I do not believe making it illegal is the answer. As a principle, legislating morality never works.
It's already complicated enough -> Many parents are SHOCKED to find out how little say-so they have in the treatment of their children. The physician's #1 duty is to the PATIENT, not the patient's parents. I can't tell you how many times a parent has threatened ME PERSONALLY with a lawsuit because I had to kick them out of the room to question their child about sexual behaviors...
Parent- "My 13 year old daughter would NEVER do that! You have NO RIGHT! This is an OUTRAGE! We are CHRISTIANS! Where's your attending? I'm REPORTING YOU!"
Attending walks up - "Yes, he can do that. Oh, and BTW, the results from the initial urinalysis are back. You're a grandfather. Congratulations."
Happens about once a month.
By making abortion illegal, we would extend the same protections to the unborn... but then, an emergency non-elective abortion procedure would just insert more people directly inbetween the physician-patient relationship, and result in privacy violations left and right. It's not as cut/dry as people think.
If the obligation goes to "the patient," and now both the mother and fetus are considered "patients," then should the government be able to imprison the mother for smoking, as it would constitute child abuse?
----------------------------------
Finally, addressing the topic at hand...
Murder is murder.
If I grabbed my gun, tracked down the Zodiac killer, and killed him in his place of worship... I would have killed a suspected murderer, but I would be guilty of murder in the first degree.
No matter how evil we think the physician was, shooting this doctor is NOT justified, and the killer should be tried by jury. If convicted, I support the maximum penalty allowable by law.
"Do not judge, lest ye be judged."
----------------------------
#1) If an abortion clinic hands out birth control pills, then several things must happen. First, the pill must be FDA approved for the usage, which requires rigorous potency and efficacy tests. Second, it must be prescribed by a physician. Thirdly, if a substance is knowingly prescribed with the expectation of treatment failure, in order to illicit more services, that is malpractice.
------------------------------------------
#2) The mechanism of action for the vast majority of oral contraceptives involve PREVENTING CONCEPTION in the first place. Providing exogenous hormone results in a "dependent negative feedback loop," which essentially "locks" the female's cycle in a post-ovulatory state. Ovulation does not occur, so no egg is released. This is the consensus, and this is how I was taught in medical school.
If you're curious, wiki explains it well. Wiki does briefly reference the "alternate hypothesized theory" of being an anti-implantation mechanism, but note that the animal models currently do not support this mechanism of action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_oral_contraceptive_pill#Mechanism_of_action
If you prevent conception, then that excludes the most common form of birth control as an abortificant. This of course, completely pisses off the religious sect, as they look to directly tie the issues of contraception and abortion together as one and the same. Lumping them together makes it easier to preach against.
-----------------------------------------
#3) I understand that abortion is a direct violation of the Hippocratic Oath, the same Oath I took right after I put on my white coat for the first time.But here's where things get complicated.
16y/o female presents with extreme flank pain with vaginal bleeding. Ultrasound reveals an ectopic pregnancy in the left fallopian tube, which completely blocks the tube. The ONLY thing to do is surgically remove it... otherwise, you risk the mother's life. The fetus WILL die, as there isn't sufficient blood supply in the fallopian tube to support it. If you let it sit there, it will become necrotic, septic, and a huge mess for the internists and surgeons.
In this advanced case illustrated, excision of the whole conceptus is the ONLY option (unless smaller, then methotrexate and some anti-cancer drugs will do it). At this point, does it qualify as "medicine"? Does it violate the Oath? Is it a "sin" ? That's between you, your God, and your church.
And people want to complicate this by making it illegal?
Oh boy... here we go... now I have to answer to the woman, to God, AND the federal government who will certainly make my life hell to "ensure I was following the law."
----------------------------------
#4) Regardless of the morality of the issue, I do not believe making it illegal is the answer. As a principle, legislating morality never works.
It's already complicated enough -> Many parents are SHOCKED to find out how little say-so they have in the treatment of their children. The physician's #1 duty is to the PATIENT, not the patient's parents. I can't tell you how many times a parent has threatened ME PERSONALLY with a lawsuit because I had to kick them out of the room to question their child about sexual behaviors...
Parent- "My 13 year old daughter would NEVER do that! You have NO RIGHT! This is an OUTRAGE! We are CHRISTIANS! Where's your attending? I'm REPORTING YOU!"
Attending walks up - "Yes, he can do that. Oh, and BTW, the results from the initial urinalysis are back. You're a grandfather. Congratulations."
Happens about once a month.
By making abortion illegal, we would extend the same protections to the unborn... but then, an emergency non-elective abortion procedure would just insert more people directly inbetween the physician-patient relationship, and result in privacy violations left and right. It's not as cut/dry as people think.
If the obligation goes to "the patient," and now both the mother and fetus are considered "patients," then should the government be able to imprison the mother for smoking, as it would constitute child abuse?
----------------------------------
Finally, addressing the topic at hand...
Murder is murder.
If I grabbed my gun, tracked down the Zodiac killer, and killed him in his place of worship... I would have killed a suspected murderer, but I would be guilty of murder in the first degree.
No matter how evil we think the physician was, shooting this doctor is NOT justified, and the killer should be tried by jury. If convicted, I support the maximum penalty allowable by law.
"Do not judge, lest ye be judged."
What the crap!?!?! Daily oral contraceptive devices prevent ovulation. There shouldn't be an egg to fertilize in the first place.
Oops, Senseiturtle beat me to the birth control pill lecture.
I disagree with abortions on a moral level, but I never want to see them outlawed either. I can't understand how someone makes it their daily job. To me, that goes beyond what a doctor should be, but that's my opinion. I guess I am pro-choice if it comes down to it, but my prayers are that people are making the right choice. That doesn't always mean abortions are correct.
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+1000
ever notice how the committed zealots, recently located jesus people, recently quit smoking people and people out of rehab all behave similar!
the narrow minded are easily lead-proverbs
I'm all for everyone having rights to do what they want, that is the basics that this country was founded on. It is your RIGHT to not have to work, but that shouldnt mean the government gives you a check for doing so with money taken from the millions of people who do drag themselves out of bed every morning to provide for themselves, their families, etc., etc. On par with that, it is a woman's RIGHT to not want to have a child, so she either needs to 1) keep her legs closed, 2) learn that there are other things you can do sexually and not get pregnant. I believe that once a fetus, baby, whatever terminology you want to use, is conceived, it is a PERSON, and with the exception of circumstances that threaten the LIFE of the mother, aborting it to me is the same as 1st degree murder. Abortion only helps encourage people's attitude of having no responsibility, especially teenagers, they need to realize life isnt all fun and games like it is on the shows they watch on tv. Having said that, and exercising my right to free speech, I also respect other people's opinions/views even if they aren't the same as mine.
Yea or the crusades......
BUT, as a believer in law, I say that regardless of circumstances the presumption of the sancity of life was in the Creators plan for this Country
When Tiller was killed he was then unable to kill anymore babies....or balls of snot, ( as the liberal courts call them )
They are not viable life so we can kill them....hmmmmm, I'd much rather face eternal consequence saying I killed one Doctor than that I supported killing a few hundred babies.....but thats just me
I can't argue with the Christian Belief ( Mine ) that if George Tiller repented and trusted Jesus as his Savior he is in Heaven today
Again, the law of the land says that the shooter is guilty , they are right.........
Me tho, I'd believe to see the shooter running thru the Pearly Gates shouting to make sure killing Tiller got on his service record.....
Don't hinder the little children, Let them come unto me......
BUT, as a believer in law, I say that regardless of circumstances the presumption of the sancity of life was in the Creators plan for this Country
When Tiller was killed he was then unable to kill anymore babies....or balls of snot, ( as the liberal courts call them )
They are not viable life so we can kill them....hmmmmm, I'd much rather face eternal consequence saying I killed one Doctor than that I supported killing a few hundred babies.....but thats just me
I can't argue with the Christian Belief ( Mine ) that if George Tiller repented and trusted Jesus as his Savior he is in Heaven today
Again, the law of the land says that the shooter is guilty , they are right.........
Me tho, I'd believe to see the shooter running thru the Pearly Gates shouting to make sure killing Tiller got on his service record.....
Don't hinder the little children, Let them come unto me......
FishingBack
Slave to Society
- Jun 30, 2009
- 768
- 16
If somebody aborts a baby then let God judge them. No man-inspired justice needed.
Merely demonstrating murder is murder. To kill babies in the womb is just as wrong as murdering the doctor and calling it a late post natal abortion. I was using the same relativism the pro abortion crowd uses. I do not condone his murder.
SirIsaacNewton
Well-Known Member
Your comparing an abortion to treat an ectopic pregnancy and partial birth abortion? I understand the point that an abortion for life saving measures needs to be available to physicians. I can even understand women having the right to choose what happens to their body. It is none of my business and my morals aren't shared by every other individual.
I would like to hear you explain to me why an individual should have the right to wait until 21 weeks, when a fetus can be delivered and an endotracheal tube can be utilized, to commit an abortion.
I don't think there is gray area here. I see black and white. You can have an abortion until 21 weeks and it is none of our/governments business. After 21 weeks I don't know of a good reason why an abortion should take place.
Please fill me in thanks.
Correctin My Post
No, I don't believe that partial birth and convenience abortions are the same
When the MD sees a clear choice in which life to save he /she ( oh lawdy, not heshe....he OR she ) B PC Dawg.........should have the ability to save the most viable. The Doc went to school for that , I didn't, as Nasty Peloosly didn't
When some one like the MD steps up I see that it relieves me of the responsibility to decide
If abortion is a means to save the mama's life, then do we evaluate how much crak it will take to sustain her habit until the next baby ???.......Makn my head HURT dam
No, I don't believe that partial birth and convenience abortions are the same
When the MD sees a clear choice in which life to save he /she ( oh lawdy, not heshe....he OR she ) B PC Dawg.........should have the ability to save the most viable. The Doc went to school for that , I didn't, as Nasty Peloosly didn't
When some one like the MD steps up I see that it relieves me of the responsibility to decide
If abortion is a means to save the mama's life, then do we evaluate how much crak it will take to sustain her habit until the next baby ???.......Makn my head HURT dam
Abortion done after a viable birth is possible is murder, I don't see anyway to argue around that...there seems to no question or way around that. Pro- Murder folks need to claim that a fetus is a potential life just to try to make the point and I don't know how you say that with a straight face ? Having said that, this country is a federal republic. If MA, NJ, CA, VT et. al. want to allow 1st term abortions so be it (until viability reaches that point) ...and if LA,AL,GA,AS,AK et.al. want to make all abortions, except in a case involving the life of the mother , rape or incest ..then that is how this country was intended to run and should be regulated, on the local state level....state by state...vote with your feet if you feel otherwise ....there is certainly NO constitutional RIGHT to abortion ... BUT you may argue there is a Constitutional RIGHT to life ....especially once viability is possible without the mother's health being jeopardized...and NO, a mentally distressed mother's health 'rights' don't count in the slightest compared to the 'right' to life...IMHO 
Good Night folks ...such a serious topic and just more concern for this once great nation.
Good Night folks ...such a serious topic and just more concern for this once great nation.If we outlaw abortion, here is my fear.
An atypical cyst forms on the cervix at month one. By month nine it will be possible spreadable cancer. This individual has 2 out of 3 family members on one side of the family diagnosed with cancer. Most of them saved but a few, unfortunately weren't. By history on this side if the family chemotherapy was out. Women on that side across the board couldn't handle it. But the OB can't say YES it is lifesaving or not. Still too many variables and risks.
Anacephaley (spelling is off) is a fatal birth defect. Many parents chose to terminate pregnancy at 20 weeks with this diagnosis through induction. Technically it's a vaginal birth but for the purposes of ending the pregnancy early. A slippery moral slope.
I think it is murder to abort for birth control reasons. However if we outlaw this then we will be closer to a strict ban. I would hate for my daughter to make that choice but I don't want her in a back alley with a coathanger either. Sometimes it's not a black/ white issue regarding the mothers health. My sister had the cancer. It turned out happy and I have a nephew out of itbut it could have gone bad over nine months. When you have kids already at home and you're faced with a decision you have to chose I want to know the ones at home have a chance to have Mom at home again.
Abortion should be a damned hard decision, you are chosing to bury your child, but I don't want a politician to outrank a doctor. If we reverse Roe vs Wade it's a step in that direction. DC has already proven it's extreme left or right. There is no such thing as middle ground anymore.
An atypical cyst forms on the cervix at month one. By month nine it will be possible spreadable cancer. This individual has 2 out of 3 family members on one side of the family diagnosed with cancer. Most of them saved but a few, unfortunately weren't. By history on this side if the family chemotherapy was out. Women on that side across the board couldn't handle it. But the OB can't say YES it is lifesaving or not. Still too many variables and risks.
Anacephaley (spelling is off) is a fatal birth defect. Many parents chose to terminate pregnancy at 20 weeks with this diagnosis through induction. Technically it's a vaginal birth but for the purposes of ending the pregnancy early. A slippery moral slope.
I think it is murder to abort for birth control reasons. However if we outlaw this then we will be closer to a strict ban. I would hate for my daughter to make that choice but I don't want her in a back alley with a coathanger either. Sometimes it's not a black/ white issue regarding the mothers health. My sister had the cancer. It turned out happy and I have a nephew out of itbut it could have gone bad over nine months. When you have kids already at home and you're faced with a decision you have to chose I want to know the ones at home have a chance to have Mom at home again.
Abortion should be a damned hard decision, you are chosing to bury your child, but I don't want a politician to outrank a doctor. If we reverse Roe vs Wade it's a step in that direction. DC has already proven it's extreme left or right. There is no such thing as middle ground anymore.
CloudStrife
Why so serious?
Your post confused me. I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly.
As for the back-alley coat hanger argument, I don't see how people choosing to risk their lives to do something immoral gives justification for making it easier to do. It should be another deterrent.
If you child grows up to a drug head, are you going to give him/her money to buy drugs so they don't have to steal it and run the risk of going to prison?
Sorry if it's confusing Cloudstrife, it may be. I'm saying it's not always a black/white issue concerning medical risk. Sometimes the doctor might not be able to say she'll 100%die, but still considers medical abortions a good idea because there's strong risk. I don't like a politician standing between a doctor and a patient.
I feel our government's main problem is the extremist left, extremist right. If we reverse the abortion laws, then we may swing in an opposite direction. Right now, abortions are allowed. If we try to find middle ground, we run a risk of across the board banning. I disagree with that.
I shared two medical examples of people I know who were approached with the subject of termination. Situations that weren't critical (yet), but weren't matters of convienence either.
There that's clarification. And my last post on the subject. This isn't something that I debate. I'll share my opinion, but it's never one that changes in these types of discussions.
I feel our government's main problem is the extremist left, extremist right. If we reverse the abortion laws, then we may swing in an opposite direction. Right now, abortions are allowed. If we try to find middle ground, we run a risk of across the board banning. I disagree with that.
I shared two medical examples of people I know who were approached with the subject of termination. Situations that weren't critical (yet), but weren't matters of convienence either.
There that's clarification. And my last post on the subject. This isn't something that I debate. I'll share my opinion, but it's never one that changes in these types of discussions.
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CloudStrife
Why so serious?
I don't think most pro-life people want abortion outlawed if the mother's life is threatened with a reasonable amount of certainty. There are some people that would ban it even if the mother would absolutely die, but I'm pretty this isn't the vast majority. Using it for birth control purposes could be easily banned without fear of it swinging to the extreme. The areas of incest, rape, and risk to the mother would be still debated though.
Aborting a fetus and calling it murder is a little far fetched for me. I also think saying it violates the doctors oath is ridiculous.
I don't feel I have an opinion on the subject, simply because I cannot carry a baby. Its her body, she should be able to do with it as she see fit.
My only belief is since there is no defining line between when a fetus becomes a baby other than birth. Ergo, I see no problems with abortion nor do I consider it murder.
I don't feel I have an opinion on the subject, simply because I cannot carry a baby. Its her body, she should be able to do with it as she see fit.
My only belief is since there is no defining line between when a fetus becomes a baby other than birth. Ergo, I see no problems with abortion nor do I consider it murder.
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