Another M4/M16 Reliability Thread

[ATSOFLA]

Examining the Complaints About American Rifle Reliability

Defense Review's Take on it


This is for all you Gas Piston guys.

FWIW, I never bought into the Gas Piston thing, but to each his own.

I just find it interesting that the Grunts don't have issues. What abouth the combat POGS? How's the rifles running for them?

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Examining the Complaints About American Rifle Reliability

Defense Review's Take on it


This is for all you Gas Piston guys.

FWIW, I never bought into the Gas Piston thing, but to each his own.

I just find it interesting that the Grunts don't have issues. What abouth the combat POGS? How's the rifles running for them?

********.

 

[dwr461]

I did a wedding for a US Ranger Sgt a couple of years ago. Most of his wedding party was also Rangers. They'd each done several tours in Iraq and Afgan. From what they told me the M4 was a non issue for them. It worked and did what it was supposed to do if you did your part. They viewed this issue has an internet arm chair quarter back phenomenon. I'm only reporting what I was told.

Dave

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

They'd each done several tours in Iraq and Afgan. From what they told me the M4 was a non issue for them. It worked and did what it was supposed to do if you did your part. They viewed this issue has an internet arm chair quarter back phenomenon. I'm only reporting what I was told.

Dave

This. I will also add everytime I have been around a unit that had systemic reliability issues with there M4/M16s it it could be traced to a shitty armorer and lack of inspections, PM, scheduled parts replacement, bad magazines, or simply guns that were used up. Since the Lancer and PMAGS have become more prevalent most of the reliability issues have been resolved.

 

[jdindadell]

I have always found the humor in this. If you keep them clean they seem to run fine. As for retrofitting the gun with a piston, well, it was never designed to have that, and if you want a piston gun there are many much better choices...

I am not a real big ar fan, mainly due to the round. They do get real dirty with cheap ammo, much worse than a ak74 shooting the cheapy surplus does.

 

[TonyAngel]

Hey guys, my first post here.

I have a piston AR. I converted a 14.5" build using an Osprey system. I know that many have their opinions about pistons. Some think it's stupid and don't see the point. Others say that it's the only way to go. I like it. My rifle has seen over 3000 rounds without being cleaned and that was with Silver Bear ammo. The receivers never get hot, I don't have all of that crud building up in my bolt and all over my fire control group and in all of the nooks and crannies of the receivers. The rifle runs 100% whether I remember to lube it every 500 rounds or not. It's never stopped on me. I'm not getting any carrier tilt and the system that I used doesn't have any small proprietary parts that will render it useless if lost. I do, however, maintain the rifle. I keep an eye on cam pin wear, I replace the extractor spring and insert regularly and I do add lube when I think about it.

I also have an AR that's still DI. I like it too. It isn't as sensitive to being dirty as some imply that it would or should be. It shoots smoother than the piston rifle too. As long as I don't run it dry, it keep on going. I inspect the gas rings and springs regularly and it's never stopped on me.

I really think that the AR platform has gotten a bad rap. I've found them to be really dependable and I think that those that believe that an AR has to be kept clean have been misled. All they really need is lube in the right places to displace the crud that builds up. As long as you give them that, they should keep running.

All of the above assumes that the rifle was built correctly using good parts.

 

[dwr461]

I don't personally have much of an opinion on the piston system. I'd never shoot 3k rounds without cleaning a weapon anyway. Not one I'd have to rely on for my life.

Dave

 

[missingAZ]

Any engineer can tell you why the AR should not be a piston gun. It was specifically purpose designed for it's specific DI operating system. I am not saying piston guns don't work, some work well for thousands of rounds but the bolt design was not meant to have forces applied off the center longitudinal axis of the bolt/bolt carrier. This is why the AR upper receiver doesn't have rails that the bolt carrier rides on like a AK, SCAR or FAL. AR bolt carrier "rails" simply locate the bolt carrier within the upper receiver. It is an ingenious design just slightly flawed and was never meant to be piston driven.

 

[TonyAngel]

Well, my piston rifle isn't something that I have to rely on for my life. I haven't cleaned it because from what I've seen, it doesn't need it to run properly and I'd really like to know how long it will go before failing. Besides, even after the rounds that I've put through it, it doesn't look any worse than my DI rifle looks after 500 rounds. I guess there's something to be said for not shooting all of that gas through the bolt.

The rifle is a parts build, so I'm not really worried about whether converting it to piston was going to have some long term ill effect. I just wanted to try out the piston conversion. Like I said before, I didn't see any of the effects that I expected to. No undue wear in the buffer tube. Nothing in the upper receiver that indicates that the carrier isn't following its intend track, no unusual wear on the locking lugs of the bolt. I'm not seeing any wear at the cam pin area of the carrier. All is fine and I have well over 6000 rounds through the rifle. Since the Osprey operates as a closed system (although I do get a little blow by), I'm not getting all kinds of build up under the handguards either. I like it.

I can't comment about other conversions, but the Osprey is running as advertised so far.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I have yet to see any advantages of having an AK in the desert or anywhere else. The AR just requires operator maintenance and good mags. If I had a troop who couldn't clean his rifle between missions or apply lube I would get rid of the troop before I got rid of the rifle. I recall an old Cav saying I've heard repeatedly; "The mission, the mount, the man". A Combat Soldier should clean and lube his rifle before he washes his body or runs off to the call center.

 

[CloudStrife]

You guys keep mentioning lots of cleaning, lubing, and good mags. That IS the difference. Those aren't big problems for us living in the USA or for our well funded troops, but it's not difficult to imagine a SHTF situation where one or more of those requirements may not be possible. How likely is that situation? Probably not very, especially for us, but the possibility is still there and a concern for some.
When piston AR type rifles come down in price, I'll look at getting one. For now, the price is based on hype.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Piston ARs still require good magazines to function they also require maintaining a stock of often hard to find, expensive, and proprietary parts to function. When your SHTF situation happens I hope you (insert piston AR maker's name here) super rifle doesn't shear its gas key. Incidentally I have seen this happen on the offerings from LWRC, HK, and with the Adams kits. I am happy with DI but if I was gonna buy a piston I'd get the Barrett.

 

[CloudStrife]

Limited part availability is a problem of piston ARs, but that shouldn't be held against the design itself.

Have there been problems with the SCAR or XCR? I said 'AR type' because I wouldn't use an actual piston AR because of the problems people have mentioned.

 

[SeventhSon]

I prefer my AR's to be DI. I've just never had a problem with either my two personally owned AR's or the numerous ones I was issued. As long as I did my part, I was good to go.

I'll leave the piston guns to my AK's and SIG 556.

 

[TonyAngel]

Just for purposes of this discussion, I'd have to say that I disagree with the statement regarding ARs needing lube, cleaning and good magazine because any rifle that you are going to trust your life to needs those things. I really don't agree with the part about the AR needing lube. What I believe the AR needs is something (a medium of sorts) to help the gas rings to form a good seal and to help displace the crud that will build up in the rifle as the firing goes on. I actually read on the net someplace where a guy "lubed" his AR with Vagisil and got it running again. I didn't believe it, so I tried it. I didn't have any Vagisil, so I used some other stuff that I dug out of the bathroom cabinet. It was some sort of skin irritation lotion. It worked. I don't know how long it would have run before it shot dry again, but it would have worked in a pinch.

I also don't completely agree with the statement about piston rifles and parts availability in a SHTF situation. A piston AR is just like any other AR in terms of being made up of parts. I would imagine that in a real SHTF situation, there isn't going to be any running down to the shop and getting more parts and I doubt that there are going to be many gas rings and extractor springs just floating around, much less bolts and FCG springs. It's the same with piston ARs. You'll have what you have, so get extras. I'll tell you this, I'm going to have a much better shot are fabricating an op rod for my piston system than I will at trying to make a set of gas rings. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. It's all the same. No matter what you have you should be prepared to do maintenance and repair what you have, if you want to be prepared.

Personally, I have an entire spare piston kit and enough AR parts laying around to just about build another rifle, be it piston or DI. All in all, I think that piston and DI systems each have their advantages.

I really do have to ask this though. Of all of the guys that are swearing off a piston AR, I wonder how many of them have actually owned one and spent any signification amount of time shooting and maintaining one.

If you've never checked out the Osprey system, you should at least look at it. It's pretty unique. It works with your existing gas block, it has no springs or small parts that could be lost rendering the rifle inoperable and the whole thing is made of steel.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I think I have enough times around piston-systems to have an informed opinion. I just don't think they justify enough of an improvement. I'm sticking with if it ain't broke...theory. As for the XCR, no thanks, it has had an continues to have a litany of teething issues. The SCAR is also not on my list I don't like the way it feels, the reciprocating charging handle, or the fact that FN makes it and doesn't sell parts to common folk. In general I dislike gun companies who thumb their noses at the gun-buying public when they think Mother Green is gonna buy their new widget and then try to make up for it when they discover the .mil money ain't coming. I dislike HK and Colt for the same reasons.

The real clincher for me on the piston guns is why? I know they guys they were conceived for and I know why they were conceived and I just don't have the same requirements as those guys. My DI guns have proven themselves and continue to do so.
I don't spend much time game planning the end of the world so I have no input on which is better for facing down Armageddon. I do however carry the things here in the sandbox and on the street at home and for the scenarios I have been in and train to be in make mine DI.

As for the AR not needing lube....well I couldn't disagree more. They need lube. Actually they need lots of lube. I run mine wet here and at home. 99.5% of all the failures to fire I have seen from AR's were either magazine related or lube related. Why wouldn't you keep it lubed? Personally I don't use any of the fancy lubes on the market I use Mobil 1 Synthetic Motor Oil. I figure if its good enough for AMG its good enough for me.

 

[TonyAngel]

Oh, and as for keeping her wet, I know more than a few guys running some sort of synthetic auto lube and seem to be having good luck with it. I've been running Slip 2000 EWL for the last six months or so. I really like it. I don't know if it has anything to do with how long my rifles will run, but I have noticed that it doesn't dry up nearly as fast as most gun oils that I've tried.

 

[dockbox]

Mobil 1 Synthetic 10w30 works great, but smells like dog-ass!

I'll look at pistons when John Noveske makes one, If DI is good enough for him, its good enough for me.

 

[Baldrik78]

I prefer my AR's to be M14's and just bypass the whole DI/piston argument

 

[missingAZ]

I've never had issues with ARs lubed with grease. I don't put oil on any gun. Those Slip products have a pretty loyal following but I can't see it working any better than grease and grease doesn't run or burn off.