AR-15 and AK-47 and Hunting

[James Cannon]

FWIW, my AK is an Arsenal converted Saiga SGL31. I have only taken it out shooting for training/practice 4 times so far, and couple more times with family for fun times. I'm still getting used to shooting a gun of it's form. It's my first EBR and first mid sized rifle, first semi-auto rifle (aside from a .22) and first all around "battle rifle" so to speak. Taking a little getting used to for me. I'll get my groups tightened up, hopefully, in time.

 

[Jed]

Your problem is trying to get it all in focus at the same time. It cannot be done. Focus on the front sight. Just make sure the front is centered in the rear (sight alignment). Then hold whatever sight picture you find repeatable (center mass, 6 o'clock, etc.) If your front sight is in focus, and you can see enough target to use as a reference, all is well. If your focus is on the target with iron sights, you will not be able to shoot consistent groups.

Thanks for that tidbit Dan.
The marksmanship priciples I was taught thirty yrs ago consist only of breathing and trigger pull from what I can remember.

 

[Blake74u]

You are actually talking about several different things. Bench shooting, military qualification (is this with the pop-up targets? because it would not be good on a KD range) and shooting in combat. The last 2 have factors other than the accuracy of the firearm involved. To describe a firearm that is only capable of mechanical accuracy of 4 minutes of angle as accurate is pretty funny to me. It may be adequate for the task at hand, but it is not "accurate".

Yup. I am. But that's a tangent that is related to "accuracy."

My point: No one claimed that that was enough for you to load your rifle back into your truck and call it a day.

However, if you're zeroing your AK on a zero target at 25 yards, you should be good at 100 yards in real life. PERIOD.

http://pokin-holes.blogspot.com/2010/01/back-to-basics-open-sights.html

With that being said: If you're shooting at 100 yards, and you're moa isn't 4, something is wrong. I think that it would be safe to say that the weapon is either inaccurate, or weapon familiarization is lacking. (More practice).

 

[Blake74u]

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=33277

That's it, I'm gonna instigate....

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The AK at 600 Yards / frozen chosin AAR

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Worland Wy, this weekend. we had 16 people show, 3 WT'ers. guns shot included, ar-15, 3 AK's, M1 Garands, M14, AR-10, SVT-40, XCR, Rem 700 sniper.
day 1
classic iron sighted rifles performed as expected on the 300-50 match. with the garand taking a 240 out of 300 and the SVT-40 139 out of 300. the AR-10 scoped took high honors tho, beating the garand shooter.

in the human wave attack, the garands performed much lower than the 20-30 round mag fed rifles getting off less than 75 rounds in 3 min. the mag feds did markedly better with the highest score going to an AK that managed 98 rounds and 89% hits. The XCR was on the way to domination when it Kaboomed.

day 2
we just sighted our guns and farted around on steel out to 600. Now I know this defy's conventional wisdom and everyone was really amazed at the results, BUUUT heres what we saw the AK do.
We sighted out to 300 on pulled and marked targets using stock IRON sights.

We moved back to 400 and proceeded to put rounds on steel with a spotter calling shots. using a Romanian wasr with a romy folder I was able to get about 85% hits on steel from prone with no problem. a few flyers and some shooter error were mostly responsible for misses. results were repeated by 4 other shooters on my gun and a VEPR as well.

At 500 we attempted again. we adjusted sights using only the factory ramp settings throughout the experiment having zeroed earlier out to 300. once again we were able to obtain 80% hits with relative ease using the "200 yard" AK. once again we verified using another shooter.

Back to 600!! once again spotted shots with wasr/folder. despite my best efforts I couldn't keep them on the steel more that 20% of the time.
600 seems to be the crossover point on a mansized target using ball ammo and service grade rifle. I have confirmed this with several rifles and feel that after 500 one must use a much more capable gun and ammo to consistently make hits. a rest/pack/bipod is alomost required at this range as well.

Ammo I was using was 762x39 Wolf 122gr HP black box. steel was 16"w x 36"h shaped like a sillouete. 5 mph half value wind at 25f and 4050ft elev. with a slight cow manure taste to the air.

comments
-the x39 was not really whacking the gong at these ranges and you could usually only hear a slight 'tink' it was definitly running out of gas at these ranges.
-the factory ramp sight settings seemed to be right on.
-the front sight is wider than the target, but by using a 6 o'clock hold and centering the target on the sight post, you can still be fairly accurate.
-i was using a pack and the mag for a rest. sometimes a loose mag would cause a failure to feed if i put pressure on the mag wrong. this might be gun related or mag related. not sure.
-I have wrapped the romy folder with some gauze then overwrapped with electrical tape. it's actually quite comfortable, looks fine and does not interfere with operation. the stock is not wobly in the least and fairly comfortable to shoot overall.
-the WASR was bone stock except for the folder, and prints about 4-5 MOA when i checked it with this ammo a coupla weeks ago.
-whoever told you that you cant hit with an AK at 500, lied to you. It's VERY doable.
-hopefully one of the other guys will back me upon this so I dont look like a big liar.

Jack

 

[Blake74u]

Believe me folks, me saying that I'm hitting body shots at 300 meters with irons is no big deal. It's not bragging. (Replying to a pm). Though I have not seen anything within the realm of 600 yards before... I have seen farther than 300 yards with an AK-47 in person.

It is "do-able." And I'm not what you would call a "marksman."

 

[Blake74u]

FWIW, my AK is an Arsenal converted Saiga SGL31. I have only taken it out shooting for training/practice 4 times so far, and couple more times with family for fun times. I'm still getting used to shooting a gun of it's form. It's my first EBR and first mid sized rifle, first semi-auto rifle (aside from a .22) and first all around "battle rifle" so to speak. Taking a little getting used to for me. I'll get my groups tightened up, hopefully, in time.

No sweat man. Welcome to "the dark side" on you choosing an AK. Good choice on the Saiga BTW!

 

[dzelenka]

Believe me folks, me saying that I'm hitting body shots at 300 meters with irons is no big deal. It's not bragging. (Replying to a pm). Though I have not seen anything within the realm of 600 yards before... I have seen farther than 300 yards with an AK-47 in person.

It is "do-able." And I'm not what you would call a "marksman."

This is very true (red). A good marksman with an AR and 77 gr mag length ammo can put 40+ hits on a man silhouette in 50 seconds with open sights from prone position at 600 yards. A few of my juniors could do 30+ in the same time if you give them a good wind call.

I used to wear out a 10" gong at around 225 yds with my SKS. It takes a lot more concentration to do it than with an AR because of the lousy trigger, but it can be done and a gong is either hit or miss (hitting center doesn't get you any more "ring"). What I have not done is shoot a paper target with an AK/SKS at any distance. I don't believe that the results would be very pretty.

 

[James Cannon]

No sweat man. Welcome to "the dark side" on you choosing an AK. Good choice on the Saiga BTW!

I have an AR stripped lower coming in the mail soon :P I figure why decide? Get both!

Honestly, I was on a tight budget for what I could afford to buy -and practice- with and with 5.45 being as cheap as it is, I decided an AK74 was best for me. I was looking into some Polish Tantals direct from Arsenal since it seemed they were using the right barrel now (unsure) when someone alerted me to an estate sale where they were liquidating an SGL31 for beans on the dollar. Hopped on it and never looked back.

It's a great rifle.

I'll still sample the AR juice though. No need to pigeonhole myself.

 

[dzelenka]

I'll still sample the AR juice though. No need to pigeonhole myself.

4th Sunday of each month we shoot a 200 yard highpower match at Gonzales. If you contact me before the weekend, I can have a NM AR available for your use. We have instructors who can teach you how to shoot from position using a sling. Ask around this website. We have had lots of takers and I do not believe any of them has not had a good time.

 

[Blake74u]

I have an AR stripped lower coming in the mail soon :P I figure why decide? Get both!

Honestly, I was on a tight budget for what I could afford to buy -and practice- with and with 5.45 being as cheap as it is, I decided an AK74 was best for me. I was looking into some Polish Tantals direct from Arsenal since it seemed they were using the right barrel now (unsure) when someone alerted me to an estate sale where they were liquidating an SGL31 for beans on the dollar. Hopped on it and never looked back.

It's a great rifle.

I'll still sample the AR juice though. No need to pigeonhole myself.

I feel 'ya. I have a pre-2008 Bushmaster myself. Lol It's neato to shoot at the range, and makes me reminisce about patrolling Baghdad.... But when things go "bump in the night", my AK comes out 'cause I know that it'll knock down an NFL Linebacker on PCP.

 

[Blake74u]

This is very true (red). A good marksman with an AR and 77 gr mag length ammo can put 40+ hits on a man silhouette in 50 seconds with open sights from prone position at 600 yards. A few of my juniors could do 30+ in the same time if you give them a good wind call.

I used to wear out a 10" gong at around 225 yds with my SKS. It takes a lot more concentration to do it than with an AR because of the lousy trigger, but it can be done and a gong is either hit or miss (hitting center doesn't get you any more "ring"). What I have not done is shoot a paper target with an AK/SKS at any distance. I don't believe that the results would be very pretty.

Oh dear. An AR-snob.

I should've taken you to that Gabriel Suarez class that I attended.... LOL They would have LOOOOOOOVED you.

 

[Blake74u]

Just kidding....

 

[James Cannon]

4th Sunday of each month we shoot a 200 yard highpower match at Gonzales. If you contact me before the weekend, I can have a NM AR available for your use. We have instructors who can teach you how to shoot from position using a sling. Ask around this website. We have had lots of takers and I do not believe any of them has not had a good time.

Awesome. I saw the gong y'all shoot on the rifle range, when I was out there for a USPSA match last month. Poor thing is abused!

I'll keep your offer in mind. I'm all about training. Now it's a matter of time and money for gas and ammo. Thank you.

 

[dzelenka]

Awesome. I saw the gong y'all shoot on the rifle range, when I was out there for a USPSA match last month. Poor thing is abused!

I'll keep your offer in mind. I'm all about training. Now it's a matter of time and money for gas and ammo. Thank you.

There is a gong out there, but I promise we aren't shooting at it. We use regulation reduced scale NRA highpower targets.