AR Curiousity

[jasonj5313]

I don't like answering that question because I am a Sponsor, but the short answer would be.....

Me?

Sorry for Highjacking your thread N4sir

 

[BDC_PAIN]

aard3 that's usually true but not always for a while there Sony was a bad brand as they used lower level parts so you were still paying for a name. That's why I ask sometimes there are company's that are mid to high in price that are better then the high priced companies.

 

[aard3]

aard3 that's usually true but not always for a while there Sony was a bad brand as they used lower level parts so you were still paying for a name. That's why I ask sometimes there are company's that are mid to high in price that are better then the high priced companies.

like i said... "study up" ;-)

It's pretty commonly known which manufacturers make quality ar-15s

 

[Sin-ster]

You get what you pay for. Caveat empor.

Let's revisit and investigate this pearl, shall we?

You are either going to like the platform, or not. There's not a whole lot of wiggle room.

If you like it, you'll want your "dream rifle", or at least one that follows VG's truthful statement a bit more closely. And now you're down $650 towards that end.
If you don't like it, you're stuck with a $650 rifle that may or may not resell easily, or return much value. (That applies to selling it off to fund an "upgrade" as well.)

Then you start to factor in the modularity of the platform, and how "personal" the process becomes of fitting it out. Rails, optics, triggers, grips, buttstocks, slings, sling plates, lights, mounts, BUIS, muzzle breaks or flash hiders, vertical grips/hand stops... $$$

Like you said-- everyone and their brother has an AR, or five. Even strangers on the range will more than likely be willing to let you break a couple of shots to try one out. You don't need to have one of your own to figure out if you'll like it or not, IOW.

Then you get into intended uses and more mechanical concerns-- barrel length and twist, flat top or A2, fixed or adjustable stock, length of the gas system, barrel profile, SS vs moly... Several other areas in which the inexpensive "tester" rifle you pick up may be different from what you ultimately decide is ideal *for you*.

And what's your "testing" going to consist of? 100 rounds per range trip, twice a month for half a year? You'll learn little more about the platform than you would by putting 50 rounds through someone else's gun. Or you may find out the REAL truth of what VG said-- and wind up with a problematic gun that frustrates the crap out of you, and turns out to be a PITA to get the manufacturer to own up to and fix.

Sure, once you've got it, you'll find a use for it I'm sure-- whether you go with something further up the ladder or not. But that's still $650 that could have been spent elsewhere in the "AR world", including (and most importantly) on ammo.

Your first AR does not have to be your last one, by any means; you'd be lucky if it turned out to be your "dream rifle". But if you start from a good foundation, you can build upon it from there-- and at much less cost. Further, throughout your upgrade period, you'll ALWAYS have a solid tool at hand-- one that if you do decide you need to sell in order to fund something else, will show a much greater return on your investment.

 

[goteron]

Novekse's are just too overpriced for my liking. I don't believe their magic fairy dust is worth it.

https://danieldefense.com/rifles/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7-lw.html

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2888

http://www.laruetactical.com/16”-larue-tactical-predatar-556

Not to mention if you shoot more than a few hundred rounds a year, the cost of the gun is a drop in the bucket compared to ammo.

 

[Emperor]

Not to mention if you shoot more than a few hundred rounds a year, the cost of the gun is a drop in the bucket compared to ammo.

Which is why I always thought the "AR" in AR platform stood for "Alot of Rounds!"

 

[Sin-ster]

I'll throw BCM into the mix of manufacturers, because they've earned it.

 

[goteron]

I agree with BCM, but they really dont have any off the shelf guns with rails...

 

[JCcypress]

Novekse's are just too overpriced for my liking. I don't believe their magic fairy dust is worth it.

https://danieldefense.com/rifles/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7-lw.html

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2888

http://www.laruetactical.com/16”-larue-tactical-predatar-556

Not to mention if you shoot more than a few hundred rounds a year, the cost of the gun is a drop in the bucket compared to ammo.

Good eye on the Rainier. I just noticed it the other day. Looks like a pretty tight package for an off-the-shelfer. Some pretty decent upgrades for the same price or less than the DD and LaRue.

Just sayin.

 

[goteron]

I am really impressed with Rainier in just about every way. Of course they dont have the QC and in-house that DD does.

 

[JWG223]

You get what you pay for. Caveat empor.

I agree 100%, but if you are competent and select proven components, an AR need not cost a whole lot, unless you are doing something specialized with it, like a switch-block, etc.

 

[JWG223]

I would have agreed prior to buying one. It is the best AR I've shot, hands down. It is insanely easy to shoot. I've shot a few pistols that make just about everyone look good, like the STI Trojan 9mm.

This is the closest thing to that, in a rifle, that I've ever seen. I'm very impressed with the product and with the switch block.

This is my experience as well. My Noveske performs flawlessly. I have not gotten my suppressor yet, but when I do, I can test the SB "for real".

Novekse's are just too overpriced for my liking. I don't believe their magic fairy dust is worth it.

https://danieldefense.com/rifles/mid-length/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7-lw.html

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2888

http://www.laruetactical.com/16”-larue-tactical-predatar-556

Not to mention if you shoot more than a few hundred rounds a year, the cost of the gun is a drop in the bucket compared to ammo.

I don't like BMW's, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. myself. They are overpriced and I don't think their sound systems, suspensions, ride-quality, etc. are worth it. I will stick to my Hyundai, Suzuki, and Buick.


^^^

That's what you sound like to me.
Yeah, the others will get you from point A to point B, but they won't perform like that BMW will on the way there. They will not be able to handle the corners as competently, or leave you feeling as refreshed when you arrive.

That is what you get with a Noveske. A hammer forged barrel capable of handling a lot more high-volume fire, a Switchblock capable of keeping gas out of your face much better when suppressed, looks (to me, I love their Gen II lower) that are more pleasing.

It may not be worth it to you, just like that guy in a Buick LeSabre smirks at that guy in the BMW 6-series. However, don't go thinking that your LeSabre is an equal of that 6-series just because you enjoy it just as much as the BMW owner enjoys his choice.

That being said, you linked some quality rifles as well, certainly not bargain basement stuff, and certainly nothing that allows you to poke insults at Noveske's price tags except that you linked the cheapest possible LaRue rifle, so what's your angle?

I'm not a fan of Mark LaRue, so I stopped buying anything from him that I can buy from someone else that will work just as well, which happens to be everything but the FUG, because I like it. I won't let personality sway me from a better item, but it certainly ran me off from the rest of his "might be just as good as..." items, such as his optic mounts, etc.

That said, no, I don't equate LaRue, DD, and Rainier to a Buick. More like a Cadillac. They are good stuff.

 

[goteron]

You're thinking about it the wrong way. Noveske doesn't make their own barrels. They buy them from FN, who also supplies PSA with barrels. Noveske prices their barrels higher because they can, not because they are any better.

DD makes and QCs their own barrels 35ft away from where they assemble your gun. They have a laser CMM machine that checks the barrels, they pull every x number, upper, lower, rail, etc out of the CNC and drop it on a CMM machine to QC it. They have a barrel straightener with someone that just straightenes barrels!

Noveskes shop is tiny, they don't have the machines and resources that DD does, noveske makes good stuff. It just costs more than it should.

Let's add up a regular rifle project here

Carbine - $1,100
RDs - $500
Irons - $100
Sling -$50
VFG and rail panel -$70
Magazines - $200
Tools and cleaning kits -$100

Total 2,120

Now, increase the cost of the gun $350

Total $2,470

So a 16% increase

Now let's throw in ammo over the course of 2 years

Say $1350

Total cost of ownership is now at $3,470 vs 3820

So now only a 10% increase. Which, really isn't much, still only $350 at the outset.

Not to mention all of the other stuff people buy, tac gear, lasers, widgets, lights, etc

Noveske makes good guns, as does BCM, DD, Larue, and a few others...

I'm just saying don't be fooled by what your not getting for that extra $350

I could make that $350 up shopping the Internet for deals on everything else. At the end of the day the carbine is the most important part of the equation, why skip on better QC, manufacturing, and support for that. The difference in steel cased vs brass cased ammo over 2 cases makes that up.

There is preference, and there is truth.

Preference, I like reticle A over reticle B

Truth - company A has better QC than company B

Im not an expert on anything, but I've laid my hand on DDs hammer forge, and watched them CM parts, I've seen the tight shop they run. Industry professionals (not paid by DD) agree its the best rifle on the market.

The one gripe I have with the industry is the steadfastness with chrome lining barrels. It's 70s tech. QPQ isonite is far superior and provides a harder, more even surface. I understand why they don't switch, it's just annoying.

I like noveske gen 2 lower a lot, in fact I will probably use one with my next gun (DD upper though) the upper makes the gun, not the lower.

The switchblock is a little silly. I hate switching gas settings, if you forget the gun will short stroke without a can, it gets too hot too fast to switch easily without gloved hands. I hate the switch on my ACR... Hate it. There are other ways to solve the problem. If you have a dedicated can, get a barrel with a smaller gas port.

These are all my opinions, I'm a nobody, and it shouldn't be taken as anyone but the ramblings of an Internet commando.

Again, I'm not knocking noveske, they make an absolutely excellent gun. One of the best, I just think they lack some of the backend infrastructure that makes DD so great.

And honestly, I'm not a huge fan of DD at this point in my life for other reasons, but they build the best factory carbine out there.

 

[22doberman22]

I dunno. I put together a rifle for 445 and it works fine, DPMS upper, New frontier lower. It's a light weight slick side upper, thing is crazy light weight.

I went with DPMS for my first AR. Later down the road once I did some studing and had an eye for low grade parts, I noticed my DPMS was full of them. For example: The BCG wasn't up to par on the machining,there were more ridges cut into it than sand on the ocean floor. I changed that out with a BCM BCG. The trigger group wasn't bad but was way to tight for my liking, that has been changed out with a match grade trigger. Charging handle needed modification, but that was my opinion because of what I wanted to do with it. And the buttstock had to go, but then again that was my thinking. So all in all the SS barrel, upper, and lower are original I just gutted it and added quality parts. I recommend building to what fits your needs than buying one off the shelf that you may be happy with for a short period.

 

[goteron]

True, but a DD MFR is over $200.

So they are valuing their rifle at $175 more.

I'll have to do some looking on noveske barrels.

 

[Sin-ster]

If I were building a rifle right now, it'd have a Noveske Blem Gen II Lower for sure.

If I could find one, at any rate...

I've only seen even a picture of one that actually had a notable blemish... And who the heck cares on a hard use tool? No worse than what I'll do to it eventually...

 

[Sin-ster]

I thought... so it's not 100% by a long shot... that FN turned Noveske barrels?

 

[goteron]

I also can't walk into autozone and buy critical porsche parts on race day...

I'll take robot welded vs human welded

Turning off gas on an AR... Shudder... Even changing gas...

Re building your own. Unless you have the TDP, there are some fairly critical tolerances for long term function.

What are torquing your barrel / castle nut to? Wet or dry? Are you replacing your gas tube roll pin everytime? Did you stake correctly?

The TDP is huge, like 10s of gigs worth of PDFs, colt didn't release it, so some manufacturers have it, some don't... Some just pulled dimensions from several parts and prototyped what they currently sell. It's not rocket science, but it does matter.

I love tinkering... LOVE it, but I'd take factory assembled any day.

 

[thorswhisper]

I agree Noveske is a first class weapon. I have one. Own a LaRue as well. The one I've run the hardest through multiple high round count classes- LMT Carbine Upper,(JP bolt) Rock River lower, T-1 optic. ( No reliability issues) You get what you pay for, but you don't have to go first tier right out the blocks. A more realistic budget is probably more around $2,000.00, if you include a quality optic and mount. I'll probably build a Daniel Defense next... Your gonna spend a lot more than the cost of the rifle in ammo alone.

 

[goteron]

On a side note, thank goodness someone is fine with MIM.

MIM is fine, if it's good enough for the 10,000 rpm turbine 10
Feet away from me outside my port window, it's fine for my mag release.