ATF Publishes Final Rule in Relation to ATF-41P

[Daddy-O]

At least we don't have to worry getting a signature. Is the fingerprinting thing for each new application or just the first app after this takes affect? My wife ain't gunna be happy having to go get fingerprinted every time.

From page 18-23 of the document, it looks like the fingerprint cards, photographs, et al. are required for each Form 1 or 4. And, agreed, that is a PITA compared to how it used to be for those of us with a trust.

 

[MALIBU12]

From page 18-19 of the document, it looks like the fingerprint cards, photographs, et al. are required for each Form 1 or 4. And, agreed, that is a PITA compared to how it used to be for those of us with a trust.

And now the sheriff ( who would not sign the forms ) will charge you $1000 to do your prints ....wait and see .

 

[RovingDisco]

The end of point 4 covers the purchasing an NFA item within 24 months of a previous NFA item.

It's a compromise for sure with all of this but it could have been a lot worse.

 

[Mouthpiece]

So a trust is still the best route correct?

Yes, a trust is still the best route. While all trustees will have to submit photos and fingerprints, you will still not have to obtain CLEO sign off. There will be CLEO notification, which appears to be similar to the notification requirement for obtaining a Curio and Relics License. (Note, beneficiaries are not considered to be responsible parties.) You will also have to file an NFA Responsible Person Questionnaire (Form 5320.23).

The final rule includes an exception where the if the applicant entity has been approved as a maker or transferee within the prior 24 months, there has been no change to the “documentation previously provided” and the entity certifies this by specifying the previously approved form by form type, serial number of the firearm and date of approval, it does not need to submit the photographs, fingerprints and Responsible Person Questionnaire. And the final rule is not retroactive and will not apply to applications that are in ‘pending’ status, or to previously approved applications for existing legal entities and trusts holding NFA items.

Finally, keep in mind this will not go into effect for 180 days.

Bottom line, this is not the death knell to using trusts that the original proposed rule would have been in some jurisdictions (Orleans Parish, for example). Yes, there will be a little more work in using your trust; however I think the end result will be some additional thought as to the number of persons you want to have as trustees on the trust based on the effort it will take to get photos and fingerprints.

 

[JCcypress]

Yes, a trust is still the best route. While all trustees will have to submit photos and fingerprints, you will still not have to obtain CLEO sign off. There will be CLEO notification, which appears to be similar to the notification requirement for obtaining a Curio and Relics License. (Note, beneficiaries are not considered to be responsible parties.) You will also have to file an NFA Responsible Person Questionnaire (Form 5320.23).

The final rule includes an exception where the if the applicant entity has been approved as a maker or transferee within the prior 24 months, there has been no change to the *documentation previously provided* and the entity certifies this by specifying the previously approved form by form type, serial number of the firearm and date of approval, it does not need to submit the photographs, fingerprints and Responsible Person Questionnaire. And the final rule is not retroactive and will not apply to applications that are in ‘pending’ status, or to previously approved applications for existing legal entities and trusts holding NFA items.

Finally, keep in mind this will not go into effect for 180 days.

Bottom line, this is not the death knell to using trusts that the original proposed rule would have been in some jurisdictions (Orleans Parish, for example). Yes, there will be a little more work in using your trust; however I think the end result will be some additional thought as to the number of persons you want to have as trustees on the trust based on the effort it will take to get photos and fingerprints.

I agree 100%.


Joshua Prince is a Pennsylvania attorney and has kept a pulse on this issue for the past couple of years. Apparently, he had more time on his hands than I did today, and he is in the process of putting together a comprehensive rundown of the new rule. So far, he has come up this:

http://blog.princelaw.com/2016/01/05/411-on-the-final-rule-in-relation-to-atf-41p/

Hopefully, I will have some time to look over the new rule in its entirety over the next day or so. I will keep y'all posted if anything new jumps out.

This isn't good for us, but it's not the apocalypse. We knew that changes were coming down the track, and quite frankly, it could have been much worse.

A trust is still your best route, and if you want to avoid the impending extra hassle, now is the time to move forward on any NFA plans you may have.

 

[slogoat]

Yes, a trust is still the best route. While all trustees will have to submit photos and fingerprints, you will still not have to obtain CLEO sign off. There will be CLEO notification, which appears to be similar to the notification requirement for obtaining a Curio and Relics License. (Note, beneficiaries are not considered to be responsible parties.) You will also have to file an NFA Responsible Person Questionnaire (Form 5320.23).

The final rule includes an exception where the if the applicant entity has been approved as a maker or transferee within the prior 24 months, there has been no change to the *documentation previously provided* and the entity certifies this by specifying the previously approved form by form type, serial number of the firearm and date of approval, it does not need to submit the photographs, fingerprints and Responsible Person Questionnaire. And the final rule is not retroactive and will not apply to applications that are in ‘pending’ status, or to previously approved applications for existing legal entities and trusts holding NFA items.

Finally, keep in mind this will not go into effect for 180 days.

Bottom line, this is not the death knell to using trusts that the original proposed rule would have been in some jurisdictions (Orleans Parish, for example). Yes, there will be a little more work in using your trust; however I think the end result will be some additional thought as to the number of persons you want to have as trustees on the trust based on the effort it will take to get photos and fingerprints.

Hi Terry, I had you create my trust a few years back. Just curious, would the successor trustee be considered a responsible party? I noticed you said the beneficiary is excluded. I can take this to PM if you prefer. Thanks in advance!

 

[Mouthpiece]

Hi Terry, I had you create my trust a few years back. Just curious, would the successor trustee be considered a responsible party? I noticed you said the beneficiary is excluded. I can take this to PM if you prefer. Thanks in advance!

The way I'm reading the rules, I believe the successor trustee would also be considered a responsible party. Although they don't have any authority at the beginning, they could ultimately and, accordingly, would have to submit a photo and fingerprints.

 

[bigtattoo79]

Yes, a trust is still the best route. While all trustees will have to submit photos and fingerprints, you will still not have to obtain CLEO sign off. There will be CLEO notification, which appears to be similar to the notification requirement for obtaining a Curio and Relics License. (Note, beneficiaries are not considered to be responsible parties.) You will also have to file an NFA Responsible Person Questionnaire (Form 5320.23).

The final rule includes an exception where the if the applicant entity has been approved as a maker or transferee within the prior 24 months, there has been no change to the *documentation previously provided* and the entity certifies this by specifying the previously approved form by form type, serial number of the firearm and date of approval, it does not need to submit the photographs, fingerprints and Responsible Person Questionnaire. And the final rule is not retroactive and will not apply to applications that are in ‘pending’ status, or to previously approved applications for existing legal entities and trusts holding NFA items.

Finally, keep in mind this will not go into effect for 180 days.

Bottom line, this is not the death knell to using trusts that the original proposed rule would have been in some jurisdictions (Orleans Parish, for example). Yes, there will be a little more work in using your trust; however I think the end result will be some additional thought as to the number of persons you want to have as trustees on the trust based on the effort it will take to get photos and fingerprints.

Thank you so much for the info and I will get the ball rolling asap!!

 

[JabbaTheWhat01]

Confused. I'm thinking of setting up,a trust. No one else would be in it but me. My two year old son would be the beneficiary. Is there any more reason for me to do this? Would I need to get fingerprinted again every time I bought something new? Or every two years? Would my son?

 

[Mouthpiece]

Confused. I'm thinking of setting up,a trust. No one else would be in it but me. My two year old son would be the beneficiary. Is there any more reason for me to do this? Would I need to get fingerprinted again every time I bought something new? Or every two years? Would my son?

Your son, as the beneficiary, would not need to submit a photo or fingerprints. As long as your information and trust hasn't changed within 24 months of your last application, you will not need to submit a photo and fingerprints again.

 

[Robbie]

This is all very confusing!
I'm glad there are good BS members out there to help!

 

[Hot Pepper]

Terry, after the 180 day grace period, one with an established trust with NFA items that hasn't amended the trust within the last 24 months decides to acquire another NFA item the trust would then be subjected to the new 41p rules?

 

[fng]

So the pics and prints with Cleo notification will only be required for new forms for new Nfa items after 41p goes into effect...correct?

 

[Mouthpiece]

Terry, after the 180 day grace period, one with an established trust with NFA items that hasn't amended the trust within the last 24 months decides to acquire another NFA item the trust would then be subjected to the new 41p rules?

After 180 days, the new rules will apply to all trusts.

 

[Mouthpiece]

So the pics and prints with Cleo notification will only be required for new forms for new Nfa items after 41p goes into effect...correct?

Correct.

 

[Bunk39]

I sure hope this gets tied up in the courts for a while. No way my wife and father (trustees) will ever go in for finger prints, etc. My trust will become useless.

Guess I'll be purchasing as an individual again...


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[US Infidel]

Is it an option to have two trust? One for existing NFA items with existing trustees and a new one with maybe only myself on it? Knowing that items in a new trust could not be shared with the old trustee members.


Vas te faire encule Isis. Nous sommes Unis

 

[JCcypress]

Is it an option to have two trust? One for existing NFA items with existing trustees and a new one with maybe only myself on it? Knowing that items in a new trust could not be shared with the old trustee members.


Vas te faire encule Isis. Nous sommes Unis

Yes, you could go that route.

 

[mpl006]

What do you lawyer types think about this interpretation by a lawyer in the comment section of the TTAG article located here?

*It is not worth debating whether these two provisions are an *and* (both required) or an *or* (only one or the other required) requirement because they both cover the same type of *member.* Namely, if the person may lawfully possess an NFA firearm on behalf of the trust, then that person is a *responsible person.**

No, no, no, no, and no. Read the rule again:

The term *responsible person*… includes *those persons who have the power and authority to direct the management and policies of the trust or legal entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm. [T]hose with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust include any person who has the capability to exercise such power AND possesses … the authority under any trust instrument to … possess … a firearm for or on behalf of the trust.*

Under that rule, anyone who does not *have the power and authority to direct the management and policies of the trust or legal entity* is NOT a *responsible person.* Therefore, a trust that is drafted in a way that only a singular person has the ability to modify the language of the trust, add or transfer items from the trust, means that only THAT person will be a responsible person.

I do not see where you get your interpretation at all.

 

[bsoileau24]

I sure hope this gets tied up in the courts for a while. No way my wife and father (trustees) will ever go in for finger prints, etc. My trust will become useless.

Guess I'll be purchasing as an individual again...


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Thats where I am at also. The wife said last night there is no way in hell she is getting fingerprinted .

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