Bayou Bullets .44mag, again

[barbarossa]

I'm trying to come up with a recipe for some fairly stout .44mag loads using Bayou Bullets (coated lead) 240gr, specifically.

First off, I really like Donnie's bullets and shoot them out of all my guns in various calibers. Usually I find them to leave almost no residue, making cleaning the barrel (something I hate doing) a breeze.

But with the .44mag I ran into a bit of a problem. I used to load Bayou Bullets with Unique in this caliber and it worked like a charm. Unfortunately, I ran out of Unique and can't find any more. I also wanted to load more of a "true" full house .44mag load.

So I started using 19.5 grains of 2400, thinking I'll start from there and dial it in. Problem is, with this load I get some serious fouling. I think it's leading, but it could be the bullet coating? Not sure, all I know is it's a bitch to get out. I was shooting these out of a 6" 629 that's Magna-ported, and after 20 rounds or so I already had serious amounts of lead pouring out of the ports.

Obviously this isn't a good combination. This surprised me, after all Elmer Keith was using lead bullets with 2400.

What to do? I'd rather stick with the Bayou Bullets and find a powder that works with them, instead of going to a jacketed bullet.

Any other .44mag reloaders on here who use Bayou Bullets? What works for you?

 

[Danny Abear]

I have used more 2400 with that same bullet and had no problems in 6" 29 or Rossi 92

 

[barbarossa]

I have used more 2400 with that same bullet and had no problems in 6" 29 or Rossi 92

Maybe that's the issue? I read somewhere that too little powder can sometimes cause more leading. I'll try going up. Can you share your recipe?

Donnie told me he has new bullets with a different coating, I'll try those as well.

 

[Goatwhiskers]

I'll admit that I have no scientific info on this, but have read a few reports of coated bullets building up some sort of deposit in barrels that is hell to remove. Time will sort out whether powder or paint type coatings are good in the long run. In the mean time I'll keep on paper patching, a little more work but no problems. Of course that doesn't work for handguns, so it's not the whole answer either. GW

 

[barbarossa]

I'll admit that I have no scientific info on this, but have read a few reports of coated bullets building up some sort of deposit in barrels that is hell to remove. Time will sort out whether powder or paint type coatings are good in the long run. In the mean time I'll keep on paper patching, a little more work but no problems. Of course that doesn't work for handguns, so it's not the whole answer either. GW

I've used Bayou Bullets for a couple of years now and never had an issue with any deposits. I know I shot a couple thousand 9mm 147gr out of my SIG X-Five and just cleaned it because I felt bad. Nothing but a little powder residue came out. Same with the .45acp I loaded. I think these bullets actually clean a barrel, seriously.

It's just the .44mag/2400 combo that's been problematic.

 

[highstandard40]

I may muddy up the water here, but there are a lot of factors to consider when developing a load with cast bullets, especially with a revolver. The truth is that there is no "one size fits all" approach with cast bullets. You have to have a bullet that fits your gun..........and I mean in a lot of areas not considered by most people. The trend is towards "hard cast" and sometimes that is called for but sometimes it makes matters worse. The main thing to remembers is that "fit" is king. The problem is, that when relying on commercially available cast bullets, you have little control over fit. Now you may be lucky and your particular gun may really like what you buy commercially, and then again it may not. Some guns never will be able to reach their potential because of chamber and cylinder dimensions. To be ideal for cast bullets, your cylinder throats should be slightly larger than bore diameter and bullets should be sized to fit the cylinder throats. If the throats are the same as bore size or smaller, you will have issues with bore fouling/leading. Jacketed bullets are much more forgiving of this dimensional disparity. If you cast your own bullets, you can control the fit. Commercial bullet suppliers have to try to hit a happy medium that works most of the time, and Donnie does a good job at this. As luck would have it, I too have a 44 mag that has been giving me fits. I have tried every type of lube and also Donnie's coating. I've tried different alloys and bullet sizes from .429" -.433", and bullet weights from 214-260 gr. I've finally found the problem and it's a little quirk specific to my particular revolver and the "fix" is beyond what I can discuss here and more trouble than most people would be willing to do.

Do you know your bore diameter and cylinder throat dimensions and what are the bullets sized to?

 

[frankinola]

How heavy of a crimp are you using? 2400 requires a heavy crimp in 44mag. you are at the right starting range for 2400 in 44 mag. my rifle and pistols found 19 or 19.5 the right range for recoil, accuracy and fouling. i use a lee factory crimp to get a nice crimp.
frank

 

[barbarossa]

highstandard40, thanks for your post, very informative.

As for "Do you know your bore diameter and cylinder throat dimensions and what are the bullets sized to?", no, unfortunately I don't.


frankinola, here's a picture of my crimp. How's that look to you?

 

[frankinola]

that is a good crimp. are you in the crimp groove?

 

[barbarossa]

that is a good crimp. are you in the crimp groove?

To be honest, I'm not sure. I don't think these bullets have a defined crimp groove, just what would be lube grooves. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Intuitively, what I do doesn't look "right" to me. Id like the seat the bullets so that I'm crimping against the front edge of the groove. But then the OAL is wrong. I go by the OAL in my reloading manual and just crimp there. I'm not getting any bullet set back, so I think I'm doing it right.

 

[highstandard40]

To be honest, I'm not sure. I don't think these bullets have a defined crimp groove, just what would be lube grooves. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Intuitively, what I do doesn't look "right" to me. Id like the seat the bullets so that I'm crimping against the front edge of the groove. But then the OAL is wrong. I go by the OAL in my reloading manual and just crimp there. I'm not getting any bullet set back, so I think I'm doing it right.

What you need to do is completely forget about OAL. That only applies to the exact bullet refered to in the load data. Crimp in the crimp groove and all will be fine unless the bullet is too long for the cylinder. That being said, I don't think it has anything to do with the issues you are having with bore fouling.

 

[barbarossa]

What you need to do is completely forget about OAL. That only applies to the exact bullet refered to in the load data. Crimp in the crimp groove and all will be fine unless the bullet is too long for the cylinder. That being said, I don't think it has anything to do with the issues you are having with bore fouling.

Well, in the picture above, if I crimped at the front edge of the groove, it would mean quite a bit of difference in internal volume and thus pressure, no? This is something I never understood properly.

 

[Danny Abear]

It appears that you need to move up to the next groove

 

[highstandard40]

Well, in the picture above, if I crimped at the front edge of the groove, it would mean quite a bit of difference in internal volume and thus pressure, no? This is something I never understood properly.[/QUOTE

It may influnce pressure and it may not. You have to look at the location of the crimp groove as it related to the location of the base of the bullet. Additionally there are many factors that can influence chamber pressure.

The strength (hardness) of the alloy
The coating of the bullet
The diameter of the bullet
The length of the bullet bearing surface
The type of primer
The brand of brass
The particular lot of powder

Published load data is only valid if you use exactly every component as listed. Change any one item and the data is invalid. And then to start with, every gun is an individual unto itself. This is why the advice to "start low and work up slow" is so important. As far as following load data exactly goes, does your load data list Bayou Bullets? I think not. So you have already swayed from the published data. It's a guide.....not an absolute.

 

[frankinola]

a few suggestions.

select new brass for development. Then seat a bullet to the crimp groove for the 240 SWC and note what the coal is and set each to that same coal. the Lyman range listed is 18.5 - 20.6 for 2400. i would do the following load development and testing.
load 12 rounds of 18.5, 18.8, 19.1, 19.4, 19.7, 20.0, 20.3, 20.6. i use a fine sharpie to note on each round the powder charge for later inspection.
go to the range with your cleaning kit and a chronograph.
setup the chronograph and your target
shoot the 1st set, note the velocities and then inspect the spent cartridge, accuracy and then clean and inspect your pistol.
how is the leading? how was the accuracy and how was the velocity? how was the recoil? any sign of high pressure on the spent brass?
repeat for each of the set.
then you can see which load you and your pistol like.
frank

 

[SwampMan]

Barbarossa,

19.5 grains of 2400 is a fairly high pressure load. It's probably close to the recommended max charge. I would think that it is logical that you would have some leading issues with a cast bullet. A jacketed bullet would be more appropriate with this powder charge.

I think that you were on the right track using Unique with a cast bullet, if not Unique, maybe some other medium to fast burning powder at moderate powder charge. Consider loading a light to medium charge with the cast bullet, this would mitigate the leading issue. 800 to 1000 fps is about right.

Save the 2400 for heavy loads with jacketed bullets. Or, use a cast bullet with a gas check with the heavy powder charges.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[barbarossa]

Barbarossa,

19.5 grains of 2400 is a fairly high pressure load. It's probably close to the recommended max charge.

It's in the middle of the range, closer to starting load for 240 grain LSWC, according to my Speer manual.

I read somewhere that Elmer Keith's favorite .44mag load was 22gr of 2400 under a 250gr lead bullet.

I'm getting no signs of overpressure, cases don't stick, primers don't flatten.

Reason I went with this load is that I read you're not supposed to download 2400, and I wanted a full power magnum load.

 

[highstandard40]

When using cast bullets, especially in a revolver, the single most important factor to consider is bullet fit. Power burn rate and charge level do need to be taken into account as well but the correct fit is far and away the most vital consideration. You have to know those crucial dimensions I mentioned and act accordingly.

 

[Danny Abear]

It's in the middle of the range, closer to starting load for 240 grain LSWC, according to my Speer manual.

I read somewhere that Elmer Keith's favorite .44mag load was 22gr of 2400 under a 250gr lead bullet.

I'm getting no signs of overpressure, cases don't stick, primers don't flatten.

Reason I went with this load is that I read you're not supposed to download 2400, and I wanted a full power magnum load.

You can download 2400 until there is nothing- H110 or Win296 is what you can't download; I'm betting that your 19.5 -20.0 of 2400, with the bullet seated and crimped in the correct location will work.