Can we determine this once and for all?? (Carrying in Restaruants)

[Doug.38PR]

Can you or can you not carry in Restaurants that also happen to serve alcoholic beverages but's primary function is serving food?

The text of the law is confusing, goes into all this jargon about Class A, B, C permits for selling alchohol. Some have told me you can carry, other's say you can't while still other's are uncertain and say you risk becoming a test case.

 

[762NATO]

Interested as well.

 

[Southpaw76]

Please do not consider me a source. However my bride took her concealed carry class a couple of weeks ago and she was telling me that the laws have changed. Used to be that restraunts could have multiple liqour licenses. Chili's for instance, would have one type of license for the "family area" and a different one for the "bar" area. It came down to percentages of sales of alcohol. If food was the primary source of sales, then you could carry legeally. If alcohol was, then you couldn't. She's telling me that that's changed and a business has to decide what type of license it will carry. She took her class at Precision Firearms in Baton Rouge, LA. The owener is a lawyer. I'm SURE he'd be up to date on current laws. Again, don't take my words or my bride's as gospel. However I just hope I can shed a tad bit of light or at least point in the right direction.

 

[Bearco]

LA RS 40:1379.3
.
N. No concealed handgun may be carried into and no concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this Section shall authorize or entitle a permittee to carry a concealed handgun in any of the following:
.
.
(10) Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.

So, what is a Class A-General retail permit?

LA RS 26:71.1
§71.1. Class A permit; definitions
The commissioner shall issue the following four types of Class A retail liquor permits:
(1) Class A-General:
(a) A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to a retail outlet where beverage alcohol is sold on the premises for consumption on the premises by paying customers. Such an establishment must be equipped with a permanent wet bar equipped with a non-movable sink and a backbar or similar equipment for public display and to inform the public of brands and flavors offered for sale.
(b) A Class A-General retail establishment shall be staffed by a bartender whose primary duty is to open and/or prepare beverage alcohol products for consumption on the premises by paying customers, or prepared with an appropriate lid or cover on the container for take out service. Such an establishment must meet all state and local zoning requirements as set forth by the state and by parishes and municipalities where a Class A-General retail outlet is located.
(c) Repealed by Acts 1995, No. 1016, §2.
(d) A Class A-General retail permit shall be issued only to an establishment where the state law provides that no person under the age of eighteen years is allowed on the premises except as provided in R.S. 26:90(A)(8)(a).

(e) Notwithstanding the provisions of Subparagraphs (a) through (d) of this Paragraph, the commissioner may issue a Class A-General liquor permit to any bona fide commercial film theater which had a Class A liquor permit on January 1, 1994.

(f) Notwithstanding the provisions of Subparagraphs (a) through (e) of this Paragraph, the commissioner may issue a Class A-General retail permit to any retail establishment for consumption on or off the premises. Such establishment must meet all state and local zoning requirements as set forth by the state and by parishes and municipalities where the retail outlet is located. A Class A-General retail permit issued pursuant to the authority granted by this Subparagraph shall not be deemed or qualify as a prerequisite for the issuance of any other type license or permit issued by the state or any political subdivisions thereof.
(g) The licensed premises of a Class A-General retail permit shall be able to accommodate a minimum of twenty-five patrons and contain no less than three hundred seventy-five square feet of public habitable floor area.
(h) The commissioner shall promulgate rules regarding requirements related to the number and location of public restrooms to be used in conjunction with the licensed premises of each Class A-General retail permit.
(i) Any Class A-General retail permit application submitted prior to September 1, 2001, shall not be required to meet the qualifications set forth in Subparagraph (g) of this Paragraph

Restaurants have Class A-Restaurant permits. Can a restaurant be dual permitted; one for the bar and one for the family section? The LSP said so, but to date nobody knows of a place that has a Class A-General retail permit for the bar section and a Class A-Restaurant permit for the family area. Bottom line, if you have to be 18 to enter, then you are not allowed to carry.

You can look up permit types here --> http://atcpub.license.louisiana.gov/Lookup/LicenseLookup.aspx

 

[charlie12]

I haven't heard of any changes but that's just me.

Just because he's a lawyer doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about. Look how many LEO's that think they know the gun laws they arrest you for. NOT TALKING ABOUT OUR LEO'S THAT KNOW THE GUN LAWS.

 

[Ben Segrest]

Look up whichever business you are interested in here. You can search the database online or download the entire registry as an excel file. IF the establishment DOES NOT HAVE a Class A General permit, THEN you ARE NOT PROHIBITED from carrying there under 26:71.1.

 

[Hitman]

Good Job Bearco!

I've added your answer to the pinned topic in the Carry Section on Restaurant Permits and Carrying http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?30807

 

[SamNavy]

Charlie12 makes the best point of all here.

Just because you know that you are within the law, it doesn’t mean that the particular LEO you’re talking to knows. Even if he’s wrong, you can still be arrested, charged, forced to hire a lawyer, go to court, etc… Being right doesn’t mean it won’t cost you $1000’s of dollars that you will never see again.

Here’s where LEO’s might be confused.

Section 14.95.4 defines an (Alcoholic Beverage Outlet) ABO specifically for the purpose of CONSENT TO SEARCH, and has nothing to do with carrying… it’s just the SEARCH clause.

Section 14.95.5 defines an ABO for the purpose of actually carrying there. Basically, it’s cool to carry as long as it’s a restaurant first and a bar second.

The laws are further defined in the types of liquor licences a particular restaurant has, but all my research indicates it’s perfectly legal to Restaurant Carry in LA. If you want to be double-sure you’re legal, then just don’t carry in the bar area. If you want to be triple-sure, then ask to see their liquor license and verify it isn’t a Class-A General.

!!!BUT REMEMBER, NOTHING ENSURES THE LEO YOU COME INTO CONTACT WITH KNOWS ANY OF THIS!!!

LRS 14.95.4. Consent to search; alcoholic beverage outlet
A. Any person entering an alcoholic beverage outlet as defined herein, by the fact of such entering, shall be deemed to have consented to a reasonable search of his person for any firearm by a law enforcement officer or other person vested with police power, without the necessity of a warrant.
B. For purposes of this Section, "alcoholic beverage outlet" means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are the primary purpose or are an incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.
D. An "alcoholic beverage outlet" shall not include a restaurant if a majority of its gross receipts are from sales of food and non-alcoholic beverages. E. The owner of the alcoholic beverage outlet shall post a sign, at or near the entrance, that states that by the fact of entering these premises a person shall be deemed to have consented to a reasonable search of his person for any firearm by a law enforcement officer or other person vested with police power, without the necessity of a warrant.

LRS 14:95.5 Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet
A. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet.
B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

 

[SamNavy]

So now that it’s all clear as mud… somebody who has a good handle on these laws and can remove emotion from a conversation should call the State CCW office... names and contact phone listed at the bottom of this page:
http://www.lsp.org/handguns.html

I’d suggest that not everyone call right away… maybe a MODERATOR could head up this search for us.

We need to know the actual interpretation of the CCW office of the various laws, what case precedence has been set lately (ie, if anybody in the state is actually being charged), what is currently being done legislatively to address the inconsistencies, and whatever else comes up in conversation.

It would be great if there was a pamphlet that spells out all the ins&outs of the laws… either that somebody here with some computer skills worked up that we could carry. I also bet that if somebody came up with something good enough and submitted it to the state office, they might consider using it, modifying it, or coming up with one of their own that specifically states it’s legal to restaurant carry as long as… blah blah.

 

[JadeRaven]

I would prefer to know the penalty of carrying into such an establishment.

 

[Emperor]

Or, you can go with the crowd that says this; "Concealed is concealed!" For every question you have about CC.

Disclaimer: I am not disparaging you guys that use this as your default; "carry where you want" be all/end all answer. It's actually quite amusing.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Charlie12 makes the best point of all here.

Just because you know that you are within the law, it doesn’t mean that the particular LEO you’re talking to knows. Even if he’s wrong, you can still be arrested, charged, forced to hire a lawyer, go to court, etc… Being right doesn’t mean it won’t cost you $1000’s of dollars that you will never see again.

Here’s where LEO’s might be confused.

Section 14.95.4 defines an (Alcoholic Beverage Outlet) ABO specifically for the purpose of CONSENT TO SEARCH, and has nothing to do with carrying… it’s just the SEARCH clause.

Section 14.95.5 defines an ABO for the purpose of actually carrying there. Basically, it’s cool to carry as long as it’s a restaurant first and a bar second.

The laws are further defined in the types of liquor licences a particular restaurant has, but all my research indicates it’s perfectly legal to Restaurant Carry in LA. If you want to be double-sure you’re legal, then just don’t carry in the bar area. If you want to be triple-sure, then ask to see their liquor license and verify it isn’t a Class-A General.

!!!BUT REMEMBER, NOTHING ENSURES THE LEO YOU COME INTO CONTACT WITH KNOWS ANY OF THIS!!!

LRS 14.95.4. Consent to search; alcoholic beverage outlet
A. Any person entering an alcoholic beverage outlet as defined herein, by the fact of such entering, shall be deemed to have consented to a reasonable search of his person for any firearm by a law enforcement officer or other person vested with police power, without the necessity of a warrant.
B. For purposes of this Section, "alcoholic beverage outlet" means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are the primary purpose or are an incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.
D. An "alcoholic beverage outlet" shall not include a restaurant if a majority of its gross receipts are from sales of food and non-alcoholic beverages. E. The owner of the alcoholic beverage outlet shall post a sign, at or near the entrance, that states that by the fact of entering these premises a person shall be deemed to have consented to a reasonable search of his person for any firearm by a law enforcement officer or other person vested with police power, without the necessity of a warrant.

LRS 14:95.5 Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet
A. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet. B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

*sigh* here we go again. I'm confused too. ^ says we can't (as I'm reading it)

 

[Doug.38PR]

So, what is a Class A-General retail permit?


Restaurants have Class A-Restaurant permits. Can a restaurant be dual permitted; one for the bar and one for the family section? The LSP said so, but to date nobody knows of a place that has a Class A-General retail permit for the bar section and a Class A-Restaurant permit for the family area. Bottom line, if you have to be 18 to enter, then you are not allowed to carry.

You can look up permit types here --> http://atcpub.license.louisiana.gov/Lookup/LicenseLookup.aspx

...and ^ says we can...

 

[Emperor]

*sigh* here we go again. ^ says we can't (as I'm reading it)

...and ^ says we can...

Just live with it. You will get no relief arguing about it. And if you move to get the language in the law made less vague, you will have ALL of our guns taken away, and end up being locked in a gulag.

At least that's what I heard.

 

[Bearco]

LA RS 1379.3 is the statute that covers conceal carry permits, not 14:95.
1379.3 supersedes 14:95 on anything that it conflicts.

 

[Doug.38PR]

Okay. I see what you're saying. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm does not apply to a CHL holder, just everybody who doesn't have a CHL (unless of course you have to be 18+ to be in there)

Shoot, the LA state legislature needs to hire somebody in Texas to write their statues. They say a lot more with less and their statues are crystal clear as to what CHL holders can do and not do.

In Texas signs in alchohol places either say ("The UNlicenced possession of a firearm.....is forbidden, etc. etc. etc.") or ("the licensed OR unlicensed possession......" places that make more than 50% off the sale of alchohol for consumption on the premesis) AND the only way any resident or business can keep a CHL holder out is with what's called a 30.06 statute posted on their property with specific language that's a specific size that's clearly noticable to the public (or by verbal command)


Would it help if you kept a copy of LA RS 1379.3 in your pocket in case approached?

 

[Emperor]

Okay. I see what you're saying. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm does not apply to a CHL holder, just everybody who doesn't have a CHL (unless of course you have to be 18+ to be in there)

Shoot, the LA state legislature needs to hire somebody in Texas to write their statues. They say a lot more with less and their statues are crystal clear as to what CHL holders can do and not do.

In Texas signs in alchohol places either say ("The UNlicenced possession of a firearm.....is forbidden, etc. etc. etc.") or ("the licensed OR unlicensed possession......" places that make more than 50% off the sale of alchohol for consumption on the premesis) AND the only way any resident or business can keep a CHL holder out is with what's called a 30.06 statute posted on their property with specific language that's a specific size that's clearly noticable to the public (or by verbal command)


Would it help if you kept a copy of LA RS 1379.3 in your pocket in case approached?

This is funny!

Seriously, have you ever heard Barbara Norton try to speak? Here (Louisiana), you practically have to write your own bill and then find someone to sponsor it and bring it forward.

More than a few times I have heard the phrase, "We are not here (Legislature), to worry about whether or not the laws we are voting on are constitutional or understandable."

This^ gem was from John Alario several years ago.

 

[Renegade]

Would it help if you kept a copy of LA RS 1379.3 in your pocket in case approached?

Don't think that'll go over too well...

 

[sraacke]

LRS 14:95.5 Possession of firearm on premises of alcoholic beverage outlet
A. No person shall intentionally possess a firearm while on the premises of an alcoholic beverage outlet.
B. "Alcoholic beverage outlet" as used herein means any commercial establishment in which alcoholic beverages of either high or low alcoholic content are sold in individual servings for consumption on the premises, whether or not such sales are a primary or incidental purpose of the business of the establishment.

THIS is why LOCAL has been advising those who are Open Carrying that they should not carry in any place which allows on site consumption of alcohol.

 

[762NATO]

Is it better to not carry a firearm in a restaurant serving alcoholic drinks? All for the law to be challenged, but do not want to be the one with his neck on the line.