Can you afford to pull the trigger

[eradicater]

Total cost for this guys self defense trial was around 250 grand.

http://mynorthwest.com/11/722147/Even-in-selfdefense-can-you-afford-to-pull-the-trigge

 

[SlimPickins]

Impossible to arm chair this one...however it's never a good thing to have a weapon at a party if your drinking and not a smart idea to try to break up fights whether carrying or not.

I don't know if there was alcohol, didn't read about it.

At least he had Daddy's money to save his butt, most guys would be doing time by now if justice costs 250 K.

 

[Specularius]

If the time comes, can you afford NOT TO?

 

[oleheat]

Hmmm....I don't know....

I mean, sure- I'm as cost-conscious as the next guy, and dying would be somewhat cheaper I guess, but on the other hand....



....I'd still be a little bit DEAD!!!









In other words- what Spec said.

(And I should note that I am talking purely within the context of a legit self-defense scenario, of course.)

 

[pulpsmack]

I don't mean to imply the following about anybody participating in the thread, but such "Ayoobian" legal masturbation nonsense leads to dangerous results. Carrying and potentially using the firearm has its consequences. Not having a firearm in a bad spot has its consequences. My advice is to get the facts when starting out, then train and never look back, or hang it up in the safe for range use only. Participating in the nonsense du jour nearly cost me my life when my number came up. Commit 100% or don't carry. My $.02

 

[I_FLY_LOW]

I don't mean to imply this about anybody participating in the thread, but enough of this "Ayoobian" legal masturbation nonsense. Carrying and potentially using the firearm has its consequences. Not having a firearm in a bad spot has its consequences. My advice is to get the facts when starting out, then train and never look back, or hang it up in the safe for range use only. Participating in the nonsense du jour nearly cost me my life when my number came up. Commit 100% or don't carry. My $.02

Can you talk about what happened in your instance?

 

[pulpsmack]

I made the ******* as he walked past to his spot about 10-15 yards off. As he turned 90 degrees with the bandana on his face the gun was in the air, as if he was working up the plan (or the nerve). When he turned the other 90 my gun was levelled straight at him. He screamed OH...SHIIIIITTT as he ran full speed off the levee.... emptying his mag on us all the while. If the situation were repeated today, he would have had 7 holes in his body (or attempts) while that gun was up in the air and he was turned away.

Oh, but teh internetz ******** factored in that split second when I was young. The gun's up... he didn't face us... there has been no hostile move (yet). This ******** is what converted a would-be corpse at 30' into a sprinting target that dumped more than 10rds of .45 on us. I returned fire (advantage now gone) and then regrouped for one final shot (conserving ammo, lest he find cover or his partner appear). Even while the bullets came charging at me, I'm doing split-second math about the ****ing legalities of shooting someone in the back vs shooting someone who is still firing at me.

We love guns and like socializing. Invariably these topics arise out of interest. I simply learned the hard way they are not worth the masturbation.

 

[Leadfoot]

Let me get this straight...

You're pissed because you came of out of a situation, alive, and didn't have to end the life of another human being?

On 4 occasions I have been in the situation where the option of ending the life of another human being and being totally justified in doing so was reality and I am thankful that I have never had to squeeze the trigger.

Could I have pulled the trigger? Yessir, without a doubt. But I don't feel less of a man for NOT doing it. And I don't have someone else's death, justified or not hanging over my head.

 

[Leadfoot]

I see video all the time of officers who do not shoot and are dead because of it when they had plenty of opportunity and full justification.

In these situations, I ask myself why didn't they? I cannot answer that question.

I guess for me personally, even though I've come close, I haven't had that "me or them" moment.

 

[Guate_shooter]

Can you afford to be "just a little dead" ............... ?

I rather have my life and be homeless than own a mansion and let my relatives enjoy it after down under

 

[JBP55]

Its a miracle more cops don't die because of this hesitation. And that's all I'm gonna say about that.

.

This.

 

[Hitman]

This story is unrealistic for most, if not all of us.

Young kid, at a party, gets beat up and pulls his gun, plugs a whole in the guy who beat him up.

I mean, who here is actually going to even come close to a similar incident? and if you are, you might won't to reconsider carrying.

 

[eradicater]

I agree with you Hitman. I dont think many here will get into this situation. Its for sure not something that would come to my mind if I ever had to make this choice.

 

[SlimPickins]

I see video all the time of officers who do not shoot and are dead because of it when they had plenty of opportunity and full justification.

In these situations, I ask myself why didn't they? I cannot answer that question.

I guess for me personally, even though I've come close, I haven't had that "me or them" moment.

From the way I read the law, justification in all it's forms really comes at the hands of the Grand Jury in La.

and to add, when I was in the situation of taking fire I returned it. I still sat over a month in jail and had to wait on GJ to no bill me. Lawyers for the just in case cost several thousand bucks and I was on the receiving end of a one million dollar law suit.

I would be very slow to tell myself what justification is these days. What we read in the law is a good guide line but remember it's going to have to look like what we think we saw to a a bunch of different people.

 

[Pale Horse]

Slim, if you don't mind my asking, how much did defending yourself from the lawsuit add to the total?

 

[dawg23]

Harold Fish's legal defense has been reported to have exceeded $500,000
Listed below is one of many accounts. The shooting and arrest were big news five years ago.


http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2009/07/01/good-news-from-arizona/Wednesday, July 1st, 2009

Yesterday, the appellate court overturned the murder conviction of Harold Fish in Arizona, and remanded it for a new trial. This is indeed welcome news.

Fish is the retired schoolteacher who was hiking when attacked by an emotionally disturbed person and his two dogs. He wound up having to shoot the assailant, who died of three gunshot wounds. The lead investigator originally determined the shooting to be justifiable, but friends of the deceased apparently prevailed on the prosecutor to press charges. You can download a ProArms podcast in which a man close to the case discusses some of what went on, while guest-lecturing at one of my classes in Phoenix last year.

The jury was not allowed to know just how violent the dead man had been. Nor were the jurors given proper instructions on what constitutes self-defense. Both of these errors are cited in the higher court’s decision to reverse, found in its entirety HERE .

The case is well known to gun people because the death weapon was Fish’s Kimber 10mm semiautomatic pistol, loaded with Federal hollow point ammunition, and the prosecution made a huge deal about the powerful weapon and its deadly dum-dum bullets. These arguments were not effectively countered by defense counsel at trial, and jurors later stated that these factors did indeed influence their decision to convict. Significantly, none of that is addressed in the appellate court’s opinion, which tells us that it’s wise to be able to explain to lay people on a jury why we use the firearms and ammo we do to protect ourselves.

I personally thought the conviction of Harold Fish was a travesty of justice. Here’s hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel of the long ordeal this good man has needlessly suffered.

 

[SlimPickins]

Slim, if you don't mind my asking, how much did defending yourself from the lawsuit add to the total?

It was in 1971 and like the guy in OP I had help from my Dad, attorneys were around 3K. But attorneys for defense don't get to the GJ...at least they didn't then.

They were for in case of an indictment.

In the lawsuit I was named as a party along with my employer and the property owner where it happened. My employers promised to pay all the bills but reneged, didn't even pay me for my time in jail or even the pay I had coming when this occurred. I had no problem helping the attorney filing suit in exchange for being dropped as a defendant.

It's a hell of a mess to defend your self sometimes.

 

[pulpsmack]

Let me get this straight...

You're pissed because you came of out of a situation, alive, and didn't have to end the life of another human being?

On 4 occasions I have been in the situation where the option of ending the life of another human being and being totally justified in doing so was reality and I am thankful that I have never had to squeeze the trigger.

Could I have pulled the trigger? Yessir, without a doubt. But I don't feel less of a man for NOT doing it. And I don't have someone else's death, justified or not hanging over my head.

In any of those four situations, did your friend take two bullets as a result?

They were insanely (un)lucky random hits, but they never would have happened if the trigger was pulled immediately. It could have ended MUCH worse for BOTH of us.

 

[tim9lives]

The question I have is this. Would Mr. Bryce Fortier walked outside that house to "break up that fight" if he did not have the handgun?

Sometimes people get a gun and it gives them courage which they would be better off if they did not have that courage.

You have a situation where alcohol screwed with everyones judgement IMO.....its a Halloween Party and I am guessing most people who were fighting were drunk.

I have to tell you....whenever I have been armed and in a situation that seemed it may escalate...I always would avoid it. I surely would never try to break up a fight. Thats not my problem. Let the homeowner who threw the party deal with his guests who are acting like a bunch of jackasses.

One must always accept the responsibility which comes with a firearm. When you point it at someone and pull the trigger....you are going to take another persons life. That means someone looses their loved one.....someone looses a son....or a father...or a brother...etc. It should never be taken lightly.

The only time I am going to pull a trigger is when my life is in danger......and I am always going to avoid putting my life in danger. Whether I am armed or not....I avoid putting my life in danger.

In any case....one reason guns have always been banned from barrooms is because everyone knows alcohol and guns don't mix.

 

[Pale Horse]

In the lawsuit I was named as a party along with my employer and the property owner where it happened. My employers promised to pay all the bills but reneged, didn't even pay me for my time in jail or even the pay I had coming when this occurred. I had no problem helping the attorney filing suit in exchange for being dropped as a defendant.

So the shooting was something that happened in the course of your employment? I'm curious to hear from someone who's dealt with a post-shooting lawsuit as an individual how much it ended up costing.