CAS USPSA Match Oct. 3 Thibodaux, La.

[BayouSlide]

So Curtis, just how many of the 69 that shot in the monthly club match are competitors for the Gator Classic?

I could give a rats ass where I finish in the order of things, but I have folks traveling with me that have more ego than I do and they want to do well.

Should My wife get bumped a few places in order of finish because a bunch of other Open shooters got to practice the actual stages, in the actual bays, at the actual range where we'll be shooting a Level II match?!?!

I know of this going on at other matches, and I don't approve of that either, but you cajun people were God's in my mind, and I'm disappointed in a few of you.

Most all of the Area 6 stages are shot in advance at some point in time at their respective clubs, but that's at several different clubs over the course of a year, not at 1 club a few weekends before the match, and if they are, well, I wont comment any further past that. I don't shoot at South River, but I have friends that do and I know they get a head start on the stages. The State match is the same way at River Bend Gun Club, and I don't shoot that match because of the staff putting it on and their less than desirable character in my mind.

I'm actually saddened by this more than I am angered.

Bobby, you won't get any argument on that from me. There is a big difference in my mind, between pulling a few stages from club matches in a section that have been run over the course of year for a big sectional match, and five stages out of six run a couple weeks ahead. Won't make a difference to me, hell I can't remember the stages from one match to another, but it does to a lot of people. It is the sort of thing that can create ill will, and rightfully so.

I am just a member of the club and not an officer so my opinion don't count for sheet. If it did, you could rest assured that the Gator Classic wouldn't have had CROs (in at least one case) running stages in 2009 that weren't even currently certified as ROs. That's the kinda thing that makes me because I believe great officiating is central to a great match.

The Gator Classic has created a nice vibe for itself over the years, but that good will with the competitors can be lost as well. You raise a valid point, my friend, but it will be up to someone else to address it.

 

[dmh]

Testing elements of a stage with activators and multiple props, great idea. Running multiple stages with no activators and simple setup on the same range with a prize table on the line, terrible idea.

I'm sure this happens all over the country but it really shouldn't.

 

[smith625]

First of all posting the stages IMHO is a bad idea. One, as it looks on paper is never how it actually is. Two i think all the shooters need to know is the round count. Three this is why in my tenure as pres of EAPS i did not post the damn stages, show up and shoot it!! The fact that these stages were set up and shot two weeks before the sectional was a bad idea. I also feel if they are not altered and the stage descriptions, likewise that there is an unfair advantage gained. Ok let the Ed bashing begin i could care less.

 

[#1bambam]

First of all posting the stages IMHO is a bad idea. One, as it looks on paper is never how it actually is. Two i think all the shooters need to know is the round count. Three this is why in my tenure as pres of EAPS i did not post the damn stages, show up and shoot it!! The fact that these stages were set up and shot two weeks before the sectional was a bad idea. I also feel if they are not altered and the stage descriptions, likewise that there is an unfair advantage gained. Ok let the Ed bashing begin i could care less.

Well I have heard that you dont like Kawasaki motorbikes.....LOL

 

[uspsashooter337]

You shot the Magnolia Classic, you are not suggesting those stages had never been set up before are you?

There is a fundamental difference between a major match using stages from previous local matches (we all know this happens, it's where most of the stages come from) versus a local club that is essentially run by the same folks that are running/designing/setting up the major match using five of the stages just weeks before a match where out of state shooters are coming in and there is a significant prize table on the line.

 

[Gary Thibodaux]

There was no cloak and dagger strategy held here. Stages were set up from the LGC match schedule with no intent of violating any sacred rules. These stages were a facsimile and interpretation of a few people's ideas of what a stage should look like. Will the stages be different for the Gator - you bet. Do I think anyone gained an advantage - hell no. We have always attempted to put on the best, most fun, and HONEST match anywhere.
Gary

 

[BayouSlide]

As a Level II match, the COFs must be approved by the NROI, per Appendix A1. I'm assuming the published stages are approved at this point.

Granted, stages always hit the ground slightly different from paper for a number of practical reasons, but how significantly can they be changed as this point from what has been approved? Usually, barring some minor adjustments, what is published was pretty close to what you'll see at the Level II and above matches I've worked in the past.

 

[FreedomGunworks]

Blame shifting here? I'm not talking about the Mississippi Classic, I'm talking about the Gator Classic. You didn't answer any of my questions, but no one here owes me anything.

 

[Will_M]

You shot the Magnolia Classic, you are not suggesting those stages had never been set up before are you?

I'm a regular at the Team Magnolia matches. I know for a fact that the stages at the Magnolia Classic were NOT set up in the past year. I know this because I had shot every match the past year (check the scores, you'll see my name) AND John Heiter, who is the match director, REFUSED to allow the stages to be set up beforehand. He won't even let people bring in stages for matches they plan to shoot in the future.

He said it would give the local shooters an unfair advantage.

Sound familiar?

It is dirty and unfair that the stages should be set up at any match, much less THE HOST RANGE of the match itself.

 

[smith625]

I see the moderators on another forum can't see the forest for the trees either Will.

 

[Will_M]

I see the moderators on another forum can't see the forest for the trees either Will.

I noticed that as well. I don't see how anyone's comments were violating any rules, either.

 

[smith625]

Just stating the facts is all.

 

[FreedomGunworks]

I see the moderators on another forum can't see the forest for the trees either Will.

I shot a GA State match once... came up on our next stage to hear one of my squad mates telling me how he blew that stage last weekend. I asked if he'd already shot it, he said "yeah, this one, stage 3, and stage 9 last weekend".

I understand working bugs out. I understand testing movers, activators, and gimmicks. They can be done without a "built to print" stage.

I watched the videos, I picked up my printed off sheet of stages and was able to name every one of them. And they look EXACTLY the same on paper and video.

 

[FreedomGunworks]

There is a fundamental difference between a major match using stages from previous local matches (we all know this happens, it's where most of the stages come from) versus a local club that is essentially run by the same folks that are running/designing/setting up the major match using five of the stages just weeks before a match where out of state shooters are coming in and there is a significant prize table on the line.

Yes, I agree. I, along with my 2 other traveling companions, will be driving many miles, across many States. The expense of taking days off of work, the cost of gas and motel rooms, and miscellaneous other expenses, makes this an expensive match. That doesn't include all the money and time I have invested in the match gun that I built for the prize table. Granted, that gun will be random drawing and the winner must be present to win, everything else about the match prizes are according to finish. It's just not fair to those like myself traveling so far to give ANYONE an advantage by letting them practice on the stages.

Now I'm a big boy, and I know people attempt to build the stages from the published stage designs, but for the match staff to build them just weeks before the match in the actual bays they will be shot in... it just don't sound fair to me.

I also know no one is forcing me to shoot in this match, and I can opt not to attend, under the circumstances it's leaning heavily that way. I don't care what any other club or group does anywhere else in the country, I don't look fwd to their matches like I have this one. I LOVE John Heiter and his match, but there is something about THE Gator that I dream about.

As I said, I'm more sad than anything, and disturbed that some folks think this is all fine and dandy. Were they in my shoes, they'd think differently.

I put on a tactical rifle match each year. It's an all weekend affair with a prize table topping $40,000.00 for only 40 competitors with an entry fee of $150.00. You do the match on that one. Would you all want to come play my game if I was shooting in it? What about if me and the local shooters were on the course practicing it?

I do this for fun, but I am also a man of principle. Ask anyone that's done business with me. I'll lose money before someone is treated unfairly. I'm not Capt America and it's not my job to fight for the little guy, but I do it anyway. Hell I just built my wife an Open gun and guess what she named it? KRYPTONITE!!!

I can't help who I am, or what I believe in, just like I can't prevent myself from fighting for what's right. I'm in a squad with some great people for The Gator. Gary, Barbara, Forrest, Peggy, and Daniel are like family to me. Not only do I do business with these folks, but I genuinely CARE about them as does my wife, and I look fwd to seeing them like you can't imagine. They alone are worth the trip to me, and I'd drive over there to see them even if I didn't shoot.

All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to stand idly by and do nothing. I don't think any of those involved are evil, I just think some bad decisions were made and they affect a lot of people.

I hope the stages in question are completely tossed out and we get to see a fresh set of stages at the match. Is it too hard to design a stage that no one has ever shot and let a seasoned shooter to walk through it and debug it?

 

[scooterj]

I would also like to see stages not posted prior to a large match. Seems I remember a heated discussion around the same time last year. A club form another state set up a few of the stages for the '09 Gator a couple weeks prior to the match. I know they could not have been set exactly the same for the club match and the Gator, but I think the real test is to show up at a match, look over the stage, and shoot it to the best of one's ability. I, for one, never look at posted stages prior to a match, whether it be a local monthly match or an area or section match. What would be the point in programming my brain to expect one thing and see something totally different? I, very much like Bobby, am not really concerned about match placement. It's about the fun and the good friends that I have made over the years. Many on this board know me personally. How many can say they have seen me at a match and said to themselves or someone else "What's wrong with scooter? Someone must have pooped in his corn flakes"? It ain't gonna happen!!!!
I have said many times that as soon as I stop having fun and enjoying shooting, I'll find another hobby. But for now, I'll be there with bells on and who knows what else!

 

[dmh]

i figured you'd wear bells, and I'd definitely poop in your corn flakes just to say I did it.

In all seriousness though maybe this will ease folks concerns and get things on the right track. I truly believe no ill-intentions were meant, but hoepfully we can all learn from this. I remember when I ran EAPS we had a guy stick around after set-up one time to "test" a gun and chrono, and I found out during the match he had shot parts of the stages. The RM and I did not let him shoot the match for score that day because we thought he had an unfair advantage. He decided to stop shooting with us because he didn't understand why we did what we did. I was OK with that.

 

[FreedomGunworks]

I too am not pointing any fingers at anyone. I just want it all to go away. How many references are there in our rule book about "unfair advantages"? A match of this magnitude should be kept fair for everyone. The CAS monthly club match should never be advertised as "come shoot our match and get to practice the Gator 2010 stages just weeks before the match".

 

[babyrangatang]

I am posting this against my parents' wishes.

First of all, they spent a great deal of time in setting those stages for last sunday's match to ensure that no advantage was gained. We litterally spent hours discussing this very thing. Small things like distances and angles were altered from the Gator stages so that they would be different. Those are things that you can't tell by looking at a paper layout versus an actual stage. Anyone that has match experience knows how little differences in the angle of a wall or fault line can dramatically change the way you have to shoot a stage.

Secondly, the purpose for the match on sunday to be conducted the way it was was to test the time in which it took for the squads to get through the stages. Anyone that has ever run a match can attest to the importance of that. For this to be a viable test the stages and squad sizes had to have a great deal of similarity.

Thirdly, I find it insulting that my parents had to find out from another friend that they were getting thrown under the bus on this forum. NONE OF YOU called to speak to them person-to-person. I am deeply dissappointed that after years of developing a reputation of honesty and fairness, you would assume the worst.

 

[ima45dv8]

I've never shot the LA Classic before, but I'm really looking forward to it. I've only heard great things about this match and after meeting Gary and his gang in Mississippi this year, my mind was made up. I dig great matches and cool people!

Do I care if some folks got a sneak peek? Lord, no. Stages are mostly just collections of arrays and I've shot plenty of those. Enough so that I'm comfortable with what I find at most every match I attend. Just string the arrays together and get busy when the timer beeps.

I hope y'all forgive me that my first post here is in a topic some consider so controversial, but I'm not scared or offended if someone else saw the stages first. In fact, I hope it consumes their thoughts right up through them shooting the stage.
==============

P.S. On that "other" forum, we take the position that people, including match directors, aren't going to be trashed in our public forum, especially when they aren't there to defend themselves. We just don't allow that to happen to anyone. The popularity of that forum makes it a very attractive soapbox, but after much experience we don't let it be used for that. It exists to talk about the shooting.

Anyway, cool forum you have here.
Please be gentle. I'm just a noob, and from Georgia, with 'less than desirable' character.

 

[spanky]

Welcome aboard, Mark.