Cleaning question...

[LACamper]

Just curious, how many come home from the range and immediately break out the cleaning rod?

I've always felt that a decent weapon should be able to function dispite a bit of powder residue.

 

[Narco]

At least my CC Pistol is field stripped and wiped out with CLP.


Train as you fight, Fight as you train.

 

[TigerFan]

I field strip and clean every gun that I shoot. I clean my CCW once a week whether I shoot it or not.

Even if it should operate under the worst conditions, it is more likely to malfunction or break because of gunk building up and getting into places it shouldn't be.

 

[CajunTim]

I clean my rifle as soon as I get home. Yes, a decent weapon should be able to fire when dirty. But if your life depends on it why take that chance. I keep it clean for SHTF scenario.

Not trying to highjack the thread but it revolves around cleaning and servicing your weapon.

I need to vent here for a moment, nobody I have ever told this has agreed with me feel free to delete it. And I am sorry if I offend anyone.

Jessica Lynch God bless her sole served her country and was captured in Iraq after they got lost in Bagdad (I'm keeping those comments to myself) she was subjected to abuse that no US soldier should have to endure. She was portrayed by the Government as a hero that was captured while making her last stand and shooting it out with the insurgents. Then there was the Chuck Norris like POW rescue mission to save her. She was given scholarships and a ticker-tac parade and it was just a good story. I think at the time it was what the public needed a good image of selfless service by a soldier Yada Yada Yada.

So on April 24, 2007 she tells congress that she didn't even get a shot off. My weapon had jammed. So she just comes out and throws the US government, who yes "exploited" her for I guess political reasons, under the bus. Just strait out calls them out. Yes, no one wants to take credit for something they didnt do but sometimes you have to do what is best for the good of the country and I guess she feels that she did by telling the truth. My opinion is the good of the country was for her to play along with the hero scenario maybe until later in life. Pat Tillmans death is a little different.

F you US government my weapon jammed. Why did her weapon jam? I have dealt with plenty of military issued weapons and as long as you preform PMCS on your weapon it will be fine. I am assuming she had an M-16/M-4 she could have preformed SPORTS and corrected the problem I am assuming. I wasnt there and have not been in a firefight so I cant say what I would have done. I beleive I would have got my weapon operational though.

Anyway I think she should be court martialed for failure to properly maintain her weapon and keeping it in a serviceable condition which includes to clean it, thus resulting in her capture and possibly the death of her comrades. Just my thoughts. I would like any and all opinions as I can not afford a therapist I depend on others to help set me straight.

 

[Narco]

^^^^^^^ I like this guy..

 

[penguin]

Weapons jam. There are a million reasons why her weapon jammed. Why not take a knee and clear it? Remember, she wasn't in a line company. I doubt that she had been given adequate training and/or the fog of war took over and she couldn't clear it.

Court-martialed for failing to maintain her weapon? 1) There isn't a charge in the UCMJ for that and 2) WTF over? Why? Her weapon jammed. Should the US government now go after Colt for a defective product? So, if her weapon jammed and she corrected the jam, should she still be court martialed? The 'violation' is still there.

In so far as her wanting to not take credit; there are plenty of other heroic actions that could have been highlighted. I blame the Bush administration for throwing politics in the way of the military. Again.


Insofar as cleaning your weapon after a range trip; yup. Your weapon should be kept in the best state possible.

 

[LACamper]

I probably should have started this on the rifle page, but... I keep hearing about the M4/AR15 that it only works well if you keep it spotless. This is a combat weapon, there isn't always time to keep it spotless. In WWII the bolt action chambers were over large to allow for a bit of battlefield crud so that the weapon kept shooting. That was a priority. Its not anymore and Jessica Lynch (and many others) paid a price for that. You give up accuracy in exchange for reliability. I'd bet she would have happily traded her M4 for a AK that day! How about a pump shotgun? That being said, she should have been able to clear the jam. She should have had a backup weapon, even if only a pistol. She should have taken a few with her! How many did she cut with her bayonet? How many grenades did she throw? How many LAWS did she use? She gave up instead.
The US military, IMHO, needs a new weapon. I like the M14 design, though .308 is too much. It needs to be .25 to .28 caliber (6mm?) in a short action. The new Mini-14 chambered in 6.8SPC is really interesting, if they can work out the accuracy issue. It needs to be simple, reliable, and accurate to 300 meters, not 1000. Each unit needs one or two imbedded marksmen out of 10 that are accurate to 1000 meters plus with a semiauto. The M4 is too complicated, too many moving parts, for a typical soldier on a battlefield. It jams too easily, leaving you stuck with a club...
One other comment: in war there are no noncombatants.

 

[penguin]

All the horror stories that you heard are back in Vietnam with issues about mags and horrible round quality. I might have had a few misfeeds and double feeds with my rifle, but nothing major. It's a great rifle and has been well adapted. However, we could use something with a larger caliber.

As for the comment 'in war there are no noncombatants'. That's erroneous. The other 'side' may think that, but civilians caught up in a MOUT OP, medics and others like that are non-combatants. Anyone who thinks otherwise has a shitty NCOIC and OIC. Now, it might be hard to differentiate and you (unfortunately) may make errors in the fog; but you should know that there are people out that who are not BGs.

As for her 'giving up'. Again, she wasn't in a line company. She didn't have a sidearm as most NCOs on down don't have a sidearm, they only have a rifle. She didn't have a LAW (units don't even carry those anymore, they carry AT4s) as that isn't what she was there for. She was pulling truck security. I doubt anyone was carrying an AT4 as the trucks were running with MK19s and .50s. How many did she cut with her bayonet? Man, seriously, lighten up on watching Rambo. When you end up getting a concussion from an RPG that just rocked your vehicle, you aren't getting up superfast.

As for every unit having a DM (designate marksman). I was a DM alot and we were attached from our unit to different units. However, you have a 4 man squad with 2 rifleman, a SAW gunner and a squad leader (rifleman, also - but one of the other rifleman usually helped out on the SAW). Then, you have 4 of those to make a platoon. You have the firepower. The problem is, they put very green soldiers, who were in rear echelon units pulling security because intel said there wasn't too big of a threat on their route. When they went off the route that intel became moot and they were engaged by a large opfor. It's not the Marines. They don't qual as much as we do. They were trained to fire a rifle down range and that's about it (not disparaging the Army, but the rear units and their lack of training for the mission).

 

[LACamper]

The 'no noncombatants' comment I meant about our side, not about us killing civvies. If you're in a hostile area, you are a combatant, whether you plan on it or not.
I was trying to make a point about the different weapons. If hers jammed, there must have been other weapons around that she could have used. If she wasn't trained on the .50 or mk-19, or if she wasn't trained enough on the M4, then she shouldn't have been in-country. That is the government's fault.
I wasn't refering to the AR-15's problems in Vietnam. I was talking about the problems with sand. The AR-15 is a more enclosed system than say the M14. Its harder to get at the sand without disassembling the thing. With an M14 you could remove the mag, pull back the bolt and get out 90% of the sand by shaking it out. Maintainance is simpler and quicker, therefore troops are more likely to do it.

 

[penguin]

Why 'must' have there been other weapons? She was in a passenger seat and she got out of the truck. There isn't a cache of weapons just laying somewhere. Did she know how to employ a .50? I don't know. But even if she did, did she have a safe route to get to the weapon? It's mounted on top of the truck. She would have been fairly exposed getting to it. I agree that she probably wasn't trained enough -but I say that about most military units. You can never have enough. For a non-line company that was supposed to provide security; she knew just enough to get her in trouble. It's easy for someone to say 'well, I would have grabbed a grenade and a bayonet and charged the fuckers'. Were you ever in the service? Have you ever had rounds coming down range on you? For those of us who have, it's not a fun experience.

As for the AR-15. They were never in 'Nam. Now, the M-16, was. If you are talking about using an M14 for CQB; that's a totally different ballpark. The weapon is unwieldy, heavier and holds less rounds. Unless you have used that system many times, an M16 will be better for you. I'm sorry to disagree with you, but I find flaws with most of your statements on this subject.

 

[LACamper]

I'm just saying that she shouldn't have been put in that situation. Every person in Iraq is in danger of being in combat. She should not have been sent out if she wasn't prepared. She should have been either better equipped or more knowledgeable about her equipment. I can sort of understand why she blames the government but she should have taken it upon herself though to get better prepared. I would have, if I were told I was going to Iraq. That she couldn't clear a jam is a concern, but without knowing the type/extent of the jam we can't really judge. Maybe the neck of a round seperated in the chamber? That would have been a pain in the butt to clear. Who knows what happened?
I've never been in the military or in combat. I have been in some interesting situations though. I have a CCW and carry daily. When I'm going into an area that looks like it might get interesting I carry a backup firearm (.45 and pocket .380 usually) also. She had no backup weapon and she was in a combat zone. That doesn't make sense to me.
I'm not a fan of the AR system, be it AR-15, M4, or M16. Its enclosed. It dumps burned powder back into the action. Its harder to clean than the M14. Its harder to see what's going on if it does jam. I have fired them on several occasions though I haven't owned one. I have had them fail to feed. I've had double feeds. I also don't think I'd like to use FMJ in combat, but if I did, I'd want something bigger than .223. I also think the US should tell the rest of the world its none of their business what kind of ammo we use (we didn't sign the Geneva Conventions if I remember correctly).
I admit I don't know all the particulars of the Jessica Lynch case. I know she was unprepared for combat. Is that her fault? partially. Is that the US military's fault? probably. From what I've read troops were sent to both WWII and Vietnam unprepared for battle. This isn't a new phenomenon. Its still a problem... As I was trying to say before, every soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan has to consider themselves as being in combat and should be prepared, armed, and trained for it. Unfortunately the US Army doesn't seem to think that way.
I wasn't trying to start an M14/M16 debate. I was saying that I like the fact that the M-14 action is visible and easily accessable. .308 is overkill and heavy (ammo carryweight) for general troops. I'd like to see something between .308 and .223. The 6.8SPC is interesting yet unproven. The perfect combat weapon hasn't been built yet. I think pistons on AR's is a step in the right direction.

Getting back on track, I started this posting about cleaning weapons after use. I took a skeet class way back when I was in college. We used Remington 1100's. We cleaned them the first day of class with WD40 and again on the last day of class. In between each of those guns shot 100 rounds (4 classes, 25 rounds per class) of 12 ga reloads w/ #8 shot per day, 3 days a week, for 4 months. We had no problems with any of the guns. That's 4800 rounds without malfunctions per gun for at least a dozen guns! I was amazed! I too was brought up to clean after every trip to the range. I was wondering just how dirty a gun has to get before it starts having problems. I was also wondering how much that varied from brand to brand and action type to action type.