My understanding is that a no guns allowed sign is in no way a law. The worst that can happen is they can refuse to let you enter or ask you to leave, which they can do if you break any of their rules...such as no shirt, no shoes, etc. If a business has no shirt, no shoes, etc they can not have you arrested for entering without a shirt but they can refuse you entrance or ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave, they can call the police and have you removed at which point, an officer will come and ask you to leave. If you refuse, then you can be arrested but none of that has anything to do with your carrying a weapon, per se.
Do signs have the force of law?
- Thread starter nolaradio
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To be honest, I don't really care if the signs are law or not. If there's a "no guns" sign, then I don't spend my money there. Period. I have been known to send a letter to the business owner stating that I was prepared to purchase from them but their policy caused me to go elsewhere. I've never gotten a response.
So...what do the minutes say you were charged with? You made a claim and I'm doing everything I can so far to assist you with backing up that claim.
leadslinger972
*Banned*
IF the internet lawyers and the questioner would take the time to read the statute as stated by the legislature, the question would be answered. To save you the time, since most will not bother to read it anyway, YES...you can be charged, and your permit suspended if you carry concealed into a business that posts a sign saying NO GUNS. And claiming you did not see the sign is no defense. Your permit can be suspended for up to 90 days. To the internet lawyers that claim it does not apply to open carry, I'm sorry--it does. Property owners have the right, under Louisiana law, to restrict the carrying of firearms on their property. By the same token, individual gun owners have the right to refuse to go into such stores, or spend their money with these ill-educated store owners.
Concealed carry permit holders are the most law-abiding subculture in the U.S. They simply do not commit crimes! Thus, a property owner posting signs to keep out guns is simply driving away the most educated and well-heeled customer base he can hope for, and the people he WANTS to keep out of the store will ignore the signs and carry (illegally) anyway.
Violate a sign, you could be charged with illegal carry (if discovered and charged), and you could lose your permit to carry for up to 90 days. It is so easy to just shop somewhere else. If you want to get some business cards to leave with business owners which explain why you are not shopping with him, go to http://www.louisianashooting.com.
LRS 40:1379.3
L. Anyone who carries and conceals a handgun in violation of any provision of this Section, unless authorized to do so by another provision of the law, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.
M. No concealed handgun permit shall be valid or entitle any permittee to carry a concealed weapon in any facility, building, location, zone, or area in which firearms are banned by state or federal law.
N. No concealed handgun may be carried into and no concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this Section shall authorize or entitle a permittee to carry a concealed handgun in any of the following:
(1) A law enforcement office, station, or building.
(2) A detention facility, prison, or jail.
(3) A courthouse or courtroom, provided that a judge may carry such a weapon in his own courtroom.
(4) A polling place.
(5) A meeting place of the governing authority of a political subdivision.
(6) The state capitol building.
(7) Any portion of an airport facility where the carrying of firearms is prohibited under federal law, except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, if the firearm is encased for shipment, for the purpose of checking such firearm as lawful baggage.
(8) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other similar place of worship, eligible for qualification as a tax-exempt organization under 26 U.S.C. 501, except as provided for in Subsection U of this Section.
(9) A parade or demonstration for which a permit is issued by a governmental entity.
(10) Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.
(11) Any school, school campus, or school bus as defined in R.S. 14:95.6.
O. The provisions of Subsection N of this Section shall not limit the right of a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under this Section. No individual to whom a concealed handgun permit is issued may carry such concealed handgun into the private residence of another without first receiving the consent of that person.[/U]
P. Within three months of April 19, 1996, the Department of Public Safety and Corrections shall promulgate rules and regulations in accordance with the Administrative Procedure Act to provide an appeal process in the event that an applicant is denied issuance of a permit. The department may also promulgate educational requirements for renewal of concealed handgun permits.
Q. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to commissioned law enforcement officers.
R.(1) Each permittee, within fifteen days of a misdemeanor or a felony arrest, other than a minor traffic violation, in this state or any other state, shall notify the deputy secretary of public safety services by certified mail. The deputy secretary may suspend, for up to ninety days, the permit of any permittee who fails to meet the notification requirements of this Section.
Concealed carry permit holders are the most law-abiding subculture in the U.S. They simply do not commit crimes! Thus, a property owner posting signs to keep out guns is simply driving away the most educated and well-heeled customer base he can hope for, and the people he WANTS to keep out of the store will ignore the signs and carry (illegally) anyway.
Violate a sign, you could be charged with illegal carry (if discovered and charged), and you could lose your permit to carry for up to 90 days. It is so easy to just shop somewhere else. If you want to get some business cards to leave with business owners which explain why you are not shopping with him, go to http://www.louisianashooting.com.
LRS 40:1379.3
L. Anyone who carries and conceals a handgun in violation of any provision of this Section, unless authorized to do so by another provision of the law, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.
M. No concealed handgun permit shall be valid or entitle any permittee to carry a concealed weapon in any facility, building, location, zone, or area in which firearms are banned by state or federal law.
N. No concealed handgun may be carried into and no concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this Section shall authorize or entitle a permittee to carry a concealed handgun in any of the following:
(1) A law enforcement office, station, or building.
(2) A detention facility, prison, or jail.
(3) A courthouse or courtroom, provided that a judge may carry such a weapon in his own courtroom.
(4) A polling place.
(5) A meeting place of the governing authority of a political subdivision.
(6) The state capitol building.
(7) Any portion of an airport facility where the carrying of firearms is prohibited under federal law, except that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, if the firearm is encased for shipment, for the purpose of checking such firearm as lawful baggage.
(8) Any church, synagogue, mosque, or other similar place of worship, eligible for qualification as a tax-exempt organization under 26 U.S.C. 501, except as provided for in Subsection U of this Section.
(9) A parade or demonstration for which a permit is issued by a governmental entity.
(10) Any portion of the permitted area of an establishment that has been granted a Class A-General retail permit, as defined in Part II of Chapter 1 or Part II of Chapter 2 of Title 26 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, to sell alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises.
(11) Any school, school campus, or school bus as defined in R.S. 14:95.6.
O. The provisions of Subsection N of this Section shall not limit the right of a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian to prohibit or restrict access of those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under this Section. No individual to whom a concealed handgun permit is issued may carry such concealed handgun into the private residence of another without first receiving the consent of that person.[/U]
P. Within three months of April 19, 1996, the Department of Public Safety and Corrections shall promulgate rules and regulations in accordance with the Administrative Procedure Act to provide an appeal process in the event that an applicant is denied issuance of a permit. The department may also promulgate educational requirements for renewal of concealed handgun permits.
Q. The provisions of this Section shall not apply to commissioned law enforcement officers.
R.(1) Each permittee, within fifteen days of a misdemeanor or a felony arrest, other than a minor traffic violation, in this state or any other state, shall notify the deputy secretary of public safety services by certified mail. The deputy secretary may suspend, for up to ninety days, the permit of any permittee who fails to meet the notification requirements of this Section.
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“ To save you the time, since most will not bother to read it anyway, YES...you can be charged, and your permit suspended if you carry concealed into a business that posts a sign saying NO GUNS.”
Charged with what? Trespassing or charged with violating the concealed carry statute?
Sent from the Bayou Bunker Command Center, Portable Unit #33, FEMA Region 6.
Charged with what? Trespassing or charged with violating the concealed carry statute?
Sent from the Bayou Bunker Command Center, Portable Unit #33, FEMA Region 6.
leadslinger972
*Banned*
We have read, and discussed, the statute multiple times in this thread. Are you an attorney?
What shall the provision not do?
"shall not limit the right of"
Of who?
"a property owner, lessee, or other lawful custodian"
Shall not limit the right of what?
"to prohibit or restrict access"
Restrict access of whom?
"those persons possessing a concealed handgun pursuant to a permit issued under this section."
Now, Gordon, please point out where it says that a no guns sign will land you in jail... for the internet lawyers.
It DOES state that no individual with a CHP may carry in the private residence of another without obtaining consent. A local small business or large corporate business is not a private residence.
Since you are a concealed handgun permit instructor, I would expect you to have obtained legal advice on the subject.
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leadslinger972
*Banned*
Please supply the statute that defines illegally carrying a concealed firearm into an establishment with posted signs.
I will happily read it.
I did read it. But honestly it was a lot to read and I was distracted by a barking dog while reading it. Sorry I missed it.
I'm trying to understand the law, not argue with anyone. So, yes, I'll read whatever you care to post.
I still haven't received an answer to my question: In Louisiana, does a sign have the force of law? Any sign for that matter. Not just the type of sign we are discussing here.
For example, years ago I looked into what's required to have vehicles towed from a business's property. I couldn't just post a sign saying “no parking, violators will be towed at owner's expense". The local ordinance along with the name and phone number of the tow company has to be on the sign.
I would think that a “no firearms" sign would have to meet similar requirements as well. But I have yet to get a definite answer to that question.
Sent from the Bayou Bunker Command Center, Portable Unit #33, FEMA Region 6.
I'm trying to understand the law, not argue with anyone. So, yes, I'll read whatever you care to post.
I still haven't received an answer to my question: In Louisiana, does a sign have the force of law? Any sign for that matter. Not just the type of sign we are discussing here.
For example, years ago I looked into what's required to have vehicles towed from a business's property. I couldn't just post a sign saying “no parking, violators will be towed at owner's expense". The local ordinance along with the name and phone number of the tow company has to be on the sign.
I would think that a “no firearms" sign would have to meet similar requirements as well. But I have yet to get a definite answer to that question.
Sent from the Bayou Bunker Command Center, Portable Unit #33, FEMA Region 6.
And that was a great answer, which deserves a similar response. Under Louisiana law, a property owner has the right to place signs telling prospective customers no firearms are allowed on the property. To violate that sign, if the person is a concealed carry permit holder, this could result in the suspension of one's permit for up to 90 days.
Some signs actually carry the ordinance, but the statute (on concealed carry) does not require this.
Likewise, a person carrying openly could be charged with illegal carry for violating the sign.
Which begs the question--would someone be charged? Probably not...a law enforcement officer would likely order someone from the property, if called to the scene by a property owner. No one wants the hassle of a summons and a court date--unless the person violating the sign was trying to violate it to prove a point and wanted to be arrested. Which I am sure most LEOs would be glad to oblige if forced to do so.
I have never heard of such a situation*being forced--if confronted with a sign, simply shop elsewhere, and let the property owner know you have refused to spend money in his establishment because of his ignorant, selective signage.
The short answer is yes, you can be cited for carrying into a business that has signage prohibiting the carrying of firearms. The signs serve as a warning firearms are not legal, and you could receive a summons.
You could challenge this in court, and possibly win--but it would be a pyrrhic victory, after the time and money spent to prove a point!
I would welcome an attorney versed in this type of civil law to chime in here. I am basing my replies on teaching concealed carry permit classes for some 22 years. These answers are based on experience in the statute, and conversations with the administrators of the LSP Concealed Handgun Permit Section.
Some signs actually carry the ordinance, but the statute (on concealed carry) does not require this.
Likewise, a person carrying openly could be charged with illegal carry for violating the sign.
Which begs the question--would someone be charged? Probably not...a law enforcement officer would likely order someone from the property, if called to the scene by a property owner. No one wants the hassle of a summons and a court date--unless the person violating the sign was trying to violate it to prove a point and wanted to be arrested. Which I am sure most LEOs would be glad to oblige if forced to do so.
I have never heard of such a situation*being forced--if confronted with a sign, simply shop elsewhere, and let the property owner know you have refused to spend money in his establishment because of his ignorant, selective signage.
The short answer is yes, you can be cited for carrying into a business that has signage prohibiting the carrying of firearms. The signs serve as a warning firearms are not legal, and you could receive a summons.
You could challenge this in court, and possibly win--but it would be a pyrrhic victory, after the time and money spent to prove a point!
I would welcome an attorney versed in this type of civil law to chime in here. I am basing my replies on teaching concealed carry permit classes for some 22 years. These answers are based on experience in the statute, and conversations with the administrators of the LSP Concealed Handgun Permit Section.
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Below is the definition of illegal carrying of weapon. You're claiming I, as an LEO, could charge someone with illegal carry who is open carrying and violating the sign. Under which part of the definition would their actions fall?
§95. Illegal carrying of weapons
A. Illegal carrying of weapons is:
(1) The intentional concealment of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon, on one's person; or
(2) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any firearm, or other instrumentality customarily used as a dangerous weapon, at any time by an enemy alien; or
(3) The ownership, possession, custody or use of any tools, or dynamite, or nitroglycerine, or explosives, or other instrumentality customarily used by thieves or burglars at any time by any person with the intent to commit a crime; or
(4)(a) The manufacture, ownership, possession, custody or use of any switchblade knife, spring knife or other knife or similar instrument having a blade which may be automatically unfolded or extended from a handle by the manipulation of a button, switch, latch or similar contrivance located on the handle.
(b) The provisions of this Paragraph shall not apply to the following:
(i) Any knife that may be opened with one hand by manual pressure applied to the blade or any projection of the blade.
(ii) Any knife that may be opened by means of inertia produced by the hand, wrist, or other movement, provided the knife has either a detent or other structure that provides resistance that shall be overcome in opening or initiating the opening movement of the blade or a bias or spring load toward the closed position.
(5)(a) The intentional possession or use by any person of a dangerous weapon on a school campus during regular school hours or on a school bus. "School" means any elementary, secondary, high school, or vo-tech school in this state and "campus" means all facilities and property within the boundary of the school property. "School bus" means any motor bus being used to transport children to and from school or in connection with school activities.
(b) The provisions of this Paragraph shall not apply to:
(i) A peace officer as defined by R.S. 14:30(B) in the performance of his official duties.
(ii) A school official or employee acting during the normal course of his employment or a student acting under the direction of such school official or employee.
(iii) Any person having the written permission of the principal or school board and engaged in competition or in marksmanship or safety instruction.
You're talking about civil law but claiming someone can be charged with breaking a criminal law?
It DOES state that no individual with a CHP may carry in the private residence of another without obtaining consent. A local small business or large corporate business is not a private residence.
This is what I was trying to get at in my earlier comment, the term residence or private residence.
I did a little looking into the legal definition of residence and the main one is as it sounds, where you live. And most businesses do not have anyone living in them so would not be a residence or private residence, like your friends house.
Now there is another term for businesses that involves residence. That term residence as for a business means their home office or main office would be their residence. Like Walmart has many stores, but their residence by law is in Bentonville, Ark. At that location you could not enter without permission, but all their stores across the country are not their residence.
This comes from several different online dictionary, one of which was some legal one.
And I still like this judges interpretation of the 2nd concerning entering a business which dates back to 2010.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlTg1W8hsU
Where did you got the definition of residence with respect to a business.
I went to search dictionary with duckduck and it pulled up a list of all different dictionaries from websters to many others and starting looking for the term residence and private residence in each. One was listed as some law dictionary. And in one of them it had the residence for business listed. I did not know about that term being residence but it makes perfect sense.
And since the statue plainly says residence and private residence it all comes down to the definition of the words used. And in this case they may be referring to the home office of a business as well as a private residence of any person.
And since the statue plainly says residence and private residence it all comes down to the definition of the words used. And in this case they may be referring to the home office of a business as well as a private residence of any person.
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I'm not going to throw all of your business out there but from what I can tell, you've never been arrested and brought to jail. But you do have a CHP. That would mean: 1) you received a municipal summons for violating something other than state law in lieu of a physical arrest; 2) you're not being honest; or 3) I found the wrong person. To eliminate #3, in the early 2000's, were you living in western Louisiana with an address that ends in 21?
Oh...so it was on the internet.
Did the law dictionary list a context for their definition? Maybe tax code or something like that?
"I am basing my replies on teaching concealed carry permit classes for some 22 years. These answers are based on experience in the statute, and conversations with the administrators of the LSP Concealed Handgun Permit Section."
WHat is the name of your company?I want to make sure to stay clear and let
others know not to go to you for a ccw permit training.
Anyone that has such a closed mind should not be teaching anyone ,anything.
We all read the statue,rs.It clearly does not have anything about being illegal
carry where signs are posted.Maybe your the one not reading or understanding
what your reading.I spoke to an attorney ,I told you what he said.Did you read
that,apparently not.Your too busy teaching others a close minded class.
Experience isn't the law.The law is what counts in court.
WHat is the name of your company?I want to make sure to stay clear and let
others know not to go to you for a ccw permit training.
Anyone that has such a closed mind should not be teaching anyone ,anything.
We all read the statue,rs.It clearly does not have anything about being illegal
carry where signs are posted.Maybe your the one not reading or understanding
what your reading.I spoke to an attorney ,I told you what he said.Did you read
that,apparently not.Your too busy teaching others a close minded class.
Experience isn't the law.The law is what counts in court.
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Interesting thread. It is the first time that I am seeing it today, but I read all 12 pages. Up until about 3/4 of the way through, I was trying to decide if I should post what I was told about CPZ signs (Criminal Protection Zone), and who told it to me. I am glad Gordon joined in, as I was conflicted on using his good name. 
So after taking Gordon's classes, I have operated as if the signs held the force of law. A biz owner can chose to operate a CPZ, I can chose to shop elsewhere. But I am still am curious if someone can come up with the legal-eze to confirm
So after taking Gordon's classes, I have operated as if the signs held the force of law. A biz owner can chose to operate a CPZ, I can chose to shop elsewhere. But I am still am curious if someone can come up with the legal-eze to confirm
