Doing what you are told...

[JoeLiberty]

So it's okay that he was knowingly breaking the law?

I'm not even debating firearms laws here, just asking a general question on how you feel about someone breaking the law.

In general? Depends on the law, right? Depends on the context. There's nothing special about 'the law' that makes it inherently moral or immoral to follow or break it.

Specifically, I don't know what his intent was. But, absent any evidence of ill intent (he just liked collecting guns), yeah it's probably OK that he was knowingly breaking the law. Seems like it was doing no harm to anybody.

Morality and legality are different things, and they should be. I don't want some people's view of what's immoral to dictate what's legal. And I don't think a thing being illegal makes it immoral. Do you think all illegal things are immoral?

 

[leadslinger972]

In general? Depends on the law, right? Depends on the context. There's nothing special about 'the law' that makes it inherently moral or immoral to follow or break it.

Specifically, I don't know what his intent was. But, absent any evidence of ill intent (he just liked collecting guns), yeah it's probably OK that he was knowingly breaking the law. Seems like it was doing no harm to anybody.

Morality and legality are different things, and they should be. I don't want some people's view of what's immoral to dictate what's legal. And I don't think a thing being illegal makes it immoral. Do you think all illegal things are immoral?

Does it depend on the law? I thought the purpose of the law was so you followed it?

I'm not debating morals.

The law is what it is, moral or immoral, and there are repercussions if the law is not followed. The reason I'm stating this again is because he didn't follow the law and now he is facing the repercussions of that. Harming someone has nothing to do with whether it's illegal or not. I don't think peeing in public is harming anyone, but it's illegal.

 

[sliguns]

Well my friend... we live in the now... a whole new Century of learning and KNOWLEDGE. Live in you cabin in the woods and pretend it's 1826 all you want.

I don’t live in a cabin nor in the woods…you are missing the point.

So we're comparing all LEO to Nazi's?

NO not at all, you are not seeing the point.

Maybe someone's "gun ownership rights" with regards to Mental illness need to be evaluated. Just saying... you may want some meds... unless you're afraid "THE MAN" is going to give you some mind altering brainwash pills to make you conform with his rules.

So I’m mentally ill for making a logical and rational case for when it’s morally right to break the law?

I’m going to use an extreme example to see just how far your loyalty to govt law goes and to see if there is a point at which you reach the point of saying "I must resist". A new law is passed that anyone currently in Louisiana can no longer leave the State. Additionally, the governor of Louisiana has the right to have sexual intercourse with whomever he wants whenever he wants. The Governor chooses your wife. Would you break the law to save your wife from this inevitable rape?

Today we have the law... we can VOTE people in and out of power... we have a say-so. The very examples you're using DON'T EXIST anymore. (Or maybe I'm just fooling myself?? hahaha).

Correct, my point was NOT to say they do exist. You need to contemplate what I’m saying more deeply. You are still missing the point.

You enjoy your paranoid life. You may need a few more screws in that soap box before it collapses.

I’m not paranoid…again, all I’ve done was make the case for breaking immoral, rights infringing laws…just like our Founders did.

"Natural Rights".... so you don't pay taxes? lol.... A TRUE American! PLEASE tell me you're Native American!! (I'll just leave that for you to think about).

I pay taxes only due to the severe repercussions that would befall me if I didn't. I’d have good cops surround my house, kill my dogs, and potentially injure/kill my family members and myself. So yeah, I pay taxes due to the severe threat of violence against me if I don’t.

I just don't understand

agreed

I just don't understand those who think stealing a bottle of water because you're thirsty is not TRULY breaking the law... yeah... it is. You just have to be willing to accept the consequences for your actions. Everyone talks a good game.. but when it comes to actually stealing that bottle... are you REALLY willing to go through with it?

NO…perhaps this is why you are having the disconnect. You are changing the terms here. STEALING someone else property IS morally wrong. This IN NO WAY compares to breaking an immoral rights infringing law. Is stealing wrong b/c it's the law or is stealing wrong b/c stealing something that is not yours is wrong?

 

[JoeLiberty]

Does it depend on the law? I thought the purpose of the law was so you followed it?

I'm not debating morals.

The law is what it is, moral or immoral, and there are repercussions if the law is not followed. The reason I'm stating this again is because he didn't follow the law and now he is facing the repercussions of that. Harming someone has nothing to do with whether it's illegal or not. I don't think peeing in public is harming anyone, but it's illegal.

If you're not debating morals, what do you mean by "is it OK"? If you ask me whether I am OK with an action being taken by someone, I think about morality, ethics. I don't consult my federal, state, and local laws to inform my feelings on the matter. Sometimes breaking the law is bad. Sometimes it's fine. It depends on the law and the context. Are you implying it's never OK with you for someone to break the law?

If the law 'is what it is', then we seem to agree the law can be immoral. We also both agree there are repercussions for not following the law. I only go the one step further in believing the repercussions of bad laws are also immoral. And Sliguns is just saying that maybe law enforcement officers should consider the morality of what they are asked to do. It's not a huge leap.

If you want to have a discussion not relating to morality, what do you want to talk about? Illegal **** is illegal. Nice tautology.

 

[leadslinger972]

If you're not debating morals, what do you mean by "is it OK"? If you ask me whether I am OK with an action being taken by someone, I think about morality, ethics. I don't consult my federal, state, and local laws to inform my feelings on the matter. Sometimes breaking the law is bad. Sometimes it's fine. It depends on the law and the context. Are you implying it's never OK with you for someone to break the law?

If the law 'is what it is', then we seem to agree the law can be immoral. We also both agree there are repercussions for not following the law. I only go the one step further in believing the repercussions of bad laws are also immoral. And Sliguns is just saying that maybe law enforcement officers should consider the morality of what they are asked to do. It's not a huge leap.

If you want to have a discussion not relating to morality, what do you want to talk about? Illegal **** is illegal. Nice tautology.

You can't even answer a simple question.

Is it okay to break the law?

If yes, then do you accept that there are consequences?
If no, then there is nothing to discuss.

 

[JoeLiberty]

You can't even answer a simple question.

Is it okay to break the law?

If yes, then do you accept that there are consequences?
If no, then there is nothing to discuss.

Is it OK? Yes, sometimes.
Are there consequences? Yes, sometimes.

Do you believe those consequences are fair and just?

 

[Expert684]

Just what if?
Today it is legal to own AR15's, AK's, M1A's etc, etc. You get the picture. None of us are breaking the law. Then through legislation or a law signed by the Governor passes banning such firearms, then overnight you are in violation of that law. And no one need answer this, do you turn them in and give up your rights? Remember it was legal the day before? Or do you rat hole them because it was your hard earned money that paid for them, or it defies your principals. You never broke the law with any of these firearms? Maybe this is the case? Maybe not. Some laws do not "grandfather" the items? When I see crap like this going on, I can't help but wonder how long will it be before we are in the same situation?

 

[WildBillKelso]

So it's okay that he was knowingly breaking the law?

I'm not even debating firearms laws here, just asking a general question on how you feel about someone breaking the law.

Yup; sometimes it's okay. How can one not debate these New York firearms laws? They are against our enumerated constitutional right to keep and bear arms. This New York gun collector is now a civil disobedience martyr for gun rights. I always reference the following quote from MLK in his Letter from Birmingham Jail when seeing a suggestion that one should slavishly follow the law.

We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was *legal* and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was *illegal.* It was *illegal* to aid and comfort a Jew in Hitler’s Germany.

The law is a human made, social construct that ideally attempts to achieve the higher concept of justice in society. It is as fallible as humans. In tyrannical societies, the law is a tool of the tyrant to subjugate the populace. This incongruence between the law and justice has been around since the first systems of law and government and the malicious use of law has played out time after time. Plato's Socratic dialogues, Apology and Crito are evidence of this.

 

[leadslinger972]

Yup; sometimes it's okay. How can one not debate these New York firearms laws? They are against our enumerated constitutional right to keep and bear arms. This New York gun collector is now a civil disobedience martyr for gun rights. I always reference the following quote from MLK in his Letter from Birmingham Jail when seeing a suggestion that one should slavishly follow the law.

Are we now debating New York firearms laws? It's a waste a of time. I don't live in New York, so I don't care about their state laws, nor do I have the ability to vote on said laws.

You all accept that the law is what it is, and he broke the law. That's all I'm concerned with.

 

[Magdump]

Joe Liberty, Sliguns, well said guys, but mostly wasted on people who will never get it, never wake from the hypnosis of the state, and those who are more a part of the state than they’ll ever admit. The reason they always wind up back at their original argument is because it’s all they will ever know. It’s too late for them. Sort of like the people who would still vote Hillary when they are faced with all the facts about how dirty she is. They’ve already been indoctrinated. It doesn’t matter what comes to light. They have conformed. They don’t have the sense of self or the need for independence or any desire or inkling to want less governance and intrusion into their lives or to stand for what is truly right. They are weak minded and too easily contained. Part of the erosion of a once better society. How they wound up here is a mystery to me, much like their interest in guns.

 

[WildBillKelso]

Sigh. I guess a provincial mindset is what it is. I'll continue tilting at unconstitutional windmills.

 

[leadslinger972]

Sigh. I guess a provincial mindset is what it is. I'll continue tilting at unconstitutional windmills.

Sigh. I guess your mindset believes you can change other state laws by complaining about them on Bayoushooter. Continue tilting the unconstitutional windmills of the OT forum.

 

[WildBillKelso]

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C5G3XKsq7Ic[/video]

 

[Gator 45/70]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/05/crazy-people/#axzz5EqMQRLpk

 

[whitsend]

Are we now debating New York firearms laws?

That was the entire purpose of this thread. To discuss the New York firearms laws are immoral.

 

[leadslinger972]

That was the entire purpose of this thread. To discuss the New York firearms laws are immoral.

Start a new thread about something relevant.

 

[nolaboy]

It always entertains me to see pro gun pro liberty guys, which admittedly I assume you consider yourself to be, turn anti, and you flip so easily. The day the 2nd Amendment is repealed police and military with your mindset will be foaming at the mouth to enforce the illegal laws that the Bill of Rights protects....not bestows. Similar to the illegal confiscation that occurred during Katrina. Guess that old bird broke the law of Boss Hogg Eddie Compass by keeping her .38. She deserved that broken hip the cops gave her didn't she?

Bottom line Ny gun laws are illegal; they violate the 10th and 2nd Amendments. Either the State is criminal or the Constitution is toilet paper. You sound as though you believe if ever a law is created its ascended to the pinnacle of morality and must be obeyed. If Martin Luther King thought like you we would still have Whites only lavatories. Didn't Thomas Jefferson, Paul Revere, George Washington all break the law, or maybe you consider them terrorist and the US an illegal country operating outside the laws of Great Britain? 1940s Germany was full of police and military who followed lawful orders. If you chose to be born in 1939 Germany to a Jewish family, I don't feel bad that you took a gas shower in 1942. Duh, it was illegal for you to be born.

 

[leadslinger972]

It always entertains me to see pro gun pro liberty guys, which admittedly I assume you consider yourself to be, turn anti, and you flip so easily. The day the 2nd Amendment is repealed police and military with your mindset will be foaming at the mouth to enforce the illegal laws that the Bill of Rights protects....not bestows. Similar to the illegal confiscation during Katrina. Guess that old bird broke the law of Boss Hogg Eddie Compass. By keeper her .38 she deserved that broken the cops gave her didn't she?

Bottom line Ny gun laws are illegal; they violate the 10th and 2nd Amendments. Either the State is criminal or the Constitution is toilet paper. You sound as though you believe if ever a law is created its ascended to the pinnacle of morality and must be obeyed. If Martin Luther King thought like you we would still have Whites only lavatories. Didn't Thomas Jefferson, Paul Revere, George Washington all break the law, or maybe you consider them terrorist and the US and illegal country operating outside the laws of Great Britain? 1940s Germany was full of police and military who followed lawful orders. If you chose to be born in 1939 Germany to a Jewish family, I don't feel bad that you took a gas shower in 1942. Duh, it was illegal for you to be born.

When is the last time your took a class on grammar and punctuation?

Again, you are like the many here. Not my state, not my problem.

 

[nolaboy]

According to NY penal code police who sexually abuse suspects in their custody is not an illegal act. Until S7708 is passed they can keep protecting and serving hookers for get out of jail free cards. Hopefully we can all agree this is immoral, but its only illegal if you are a parole officer or corrections officer having relations with suspects.....Police are exempt. Bet that THP Randy Moss that arrested Barbie Cummings wishes he was in NY. He might still have a job.

 

[nolaboy]

When is the last time your took a class on grammar and punctuation?

Again, you are like the many here. Not my state, not my problem.

Admittedly it's been a while since I earned my degree in 02, but I must admit you formulated an excellent argument for a Leftist. Touche'.

Personal attack: check
Substance: absent
Kudos!


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