Evolution question

[Armed Mage]

Extraterrestrials genetically modified a former species of ape and created humans that's why there's no missing link. It's been well explained on the History Channels Ancient Aliens and coast to coast am.

Substitute the bible for aliens and you got the creationist argument in a nutshell.

Though the alien theory actually does make more sense by comparison.

 

[bigjakewelch]

I believe that we were created by the one and only God.

If there was a tangible example of one species "evolving" into another species then I'd listen to the "theory". Truthfully I agree with the law of adaptation but frankly it takes more faith to believe that we came from Apes than it does that we were created.


All American Gunsmithing LLC
Baton Rouge L.A.

 

[gunslinger06]

Substitute the bible for aliens and you got the creationist argument in a nutshell.

Though the alien theory actually does make more sense by comparison.

No you don't. The alien or evolutionist babble don't explain things like human emotions, the afterlife, or our conscience. Frankly, substitute time for God in the creationist argument and you have what evolutions believe. Given enough time you can get anything from anything. The fact is, evolution defies what we know to be true. God confirms it. We just have to be humble enough to realize there is a judge to whom we will all answer- whether we believe He exists or not.

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[bayoupirate]

GunSlinger and BigJake,
I agree with what you say and I believe that we were/are created by God in his image.
The HOW of the matter is what is at question here. Who are we to say that Evolution was not the instrument of God?
The other issue is our very short human attention span. We are talking about Billions of years. JFK was shot 50 years ago and that's ancient history. We make discoveries of civilizations from 5000 years ago and we have a hard time comprehending this time span.
Make a graph of a time line to scale. 4.5 Billion years in length. Let's use the metric system and make the math easy. 10m = 1 Billion years. 1m = 1 Trillion years. 1mm = 1 Million years. Modern Humans on earth = 100,000 years = .1mm.
That's about a 50 yard time line and humans have been here .1mm of it. All of the other 50 yards have led to this .1mm.
US Constitution = .000237mm

Just something to consider.
I do not question how God works, I just accept that it is His hand at work.

 

[bigjakewelch]

I believe that if my God used "evolution" it would have been talked about in the Bible.


All American Gunsmithing LLC
Baton Rouge L.A.

 

[Armed Mage]

No you don't. The alien or evolutionist babble don't explain things like human emotions, the afterlife, or our conscience. Frankly, substitute time for God in the creationist argument and you have what evolutions believe. Given enough time you can get anything from anything. The fact is, evolution defies what we know to be true. God confirms it. We just have to be humble enough to realize there is a judge to whom we will all answer- whether we believe He exists or not.

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You're right that science can't explain or disprove our spiritual nature. But on the other side of the coin religious doctrine is not a substitute for scientific fact.

What both sides of this debate need to realize is that evolution does not negate the existence of a god. Science explains the how and religion explains the why, both have their proper place.

 

[Armed Mage]

I believe that if my God used "evolution" it would have been talked about in the Bible.

Lots of things the Bible doesn't talk about. It's a religious text not a scientific encyclopedia, especially given that we have a way better idea of how the natural world works then they did when it was written.

 

[bonewagon]

To have faith in God and all he has done and still does requires the acceptance of these facts without question and proof. To behold all he has made is to believe he is the Creator. I believe in him and fall far from his grace daily, but I know he exists and forgives me still. Without this faith, I could do nothing but suffer and find horror and depression in the tragedies that befall good people. There, I am done. God bless you all on this Thanksgiving Day. Feel free to disagree. Peace be with you and yours.

 

[radney]

I believe that if my God used "evolution" it would have been talked about in the Bible.


All American Gunsmithing LLC
Baton Rouge L.A.

Remember the bible is just a collection of gospels selected by men of the chucrh, men who are fallible. There were other gospels left out by the council. Who knows what some of them said

 

[gunslinger06]

You're right that science can't explain or disprove our spiritual nature. But on the other side of the coin religious doctrine is not a substitute for scientific fact.

What both sides of this debate need to realize is that evolution does not negate the existence of a god. Science explains the how and religion explains the why, both have their proper place.

I agree that whether evolution is fact or fiction does not necessarily negate the existence of God. However, the theory of evolution has, from its beginnings, been used as an alternate explanation to the beginnings of mankind. That is one reason why I am against considering it as an instrument of God.

In fact, were it not for the inherent desire of man to do away with God the theory would have been dismissed decades ago. This theory conflicts with the laws of thermodynamics. This theory has no proof. We often focus on the lack of a missing link between humans and their "ancestors". The fact is we have never found a "missing link" for ANY animal. No missing link for cats, dogs, horses, frogs, walrus, groundhogs, mice, chickens, goats, cattle, antelope, jellyfish,.... you get the picture. It's not as though we are looking for the "needle in the haystack". If evolution were true we would have found the missing link for SOMETHING.

Just for the record,I am a scientist. I earned my BS in chemistry from LA Tech in 96. I believe in the processes of pure science. The problem with evolution is that science gives way to the basic human desire to devoid themselves of any moral responsibility.

 

[Armed Mage]

To have faith in God and all he has done and still does requires the acceptance of these facts without question and proof.

You see I can't accept that, as I believe it's important to question everything. We are capable of critical thinking, I don't see why God would fault us for using it.

 

[AustinBR]

We did not evolve from apes. We were created in the image of almighty God. Not "a god" and not "a higher power". We can deny this simple fact, wish it away and come up with grand schemes like evolution, but it doesn't change the truth.
The grand fairytales told by evolutionists of this magical single celled organism that crawled out of the primordial soup directly contradict the law of entropy. Natural systems move to their lowest state of energy or disorder. In simple terms, you don't get something from nothing. That's why its still the "theory" of evolution.
God made man in His image. Refusing to admit that does not make it any less true.

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If you knew nothing of religion and someone were to present to you two theories on how humans came to be, one that a magical higher power that created the universe created humans, and the other that humans and other animals evolved from more basic creatures, which would seem more of a fairytale to you? The whole concept of 'faith' means telling yourself something is true with absolutely no backing. There is plenty of evidence that animals do evolve and adapt. Sure, it all isn't there, but at the same time, we don't know how humans built the pyramids in Egypt. They are there though and it is generally assumed that they built them. Of course trying to figure out how something that happened so long ago, such as the step from ape like creatures to humans is going to be mighty difficult to prove.

I believe that if my God used "evolution" it would have been talked about in the Bible.


All American Gunsmithing LLC
Baton Rouge L.A.

Aren't all major religions past the Bible being the all knowing source of knowledge? I went to Catholic schools for 13 years and have studied the Bible in great detail. Much of it never happened at all. That really isn't up for debate. Look at all the variations of the Bible. Hell, look at all the different English translations of the Bible. The differences just through minor translations are pretty big. Take it across 7+ languages and much can be interpreted in many different ways. As with all religious documents, it is the idea behind what is being told that is what is important. Trying to say that everything that happened in the Bible is 100% true and that things in history that aren't in the Bible didn't happen at all is silly. The world was not created in seven days. Snakes / Serpents / Reptiles don't talk.

On the note of the Bible, I am all for discussing Bible stuff if anyone wants. Often at work my co-workers and I have fun little Bible discussions. It is just very interesting comparing how different people interpret different things in the Bible...such as the New Testament vs the Old Testament.

I agree that whether evolution is fact or fiction does not necessarily negate the existence of God. However, the theory of evolution has, from its beginnings, been used as an alternate explanation to the beginnings of mankind. That is one reason why I am against considering it as an instrument of God.

In fact, were it not for the inherent desire of man to do away with God the theory would have been dismissed decades ago. This theory conflicts with the laws of thermodynamics. This theory has no proof. We often focus on the lack of a missing link between humans and their "ancestors". The fact is we have never found a "missing link" for ANY animal. No missing link for cats, dogs, horses, frogs, walrus, groundhogs, mice, chickens, goats, cattle, antelope, jellyfish,.... you get the picture. It's not as though we are looking for the "needle in the haystack". If evolution were true we would have found the missing link for SOMETHING.

Just for the record,I am a scientist. I earned my BS in chemistry from LA Tech in 96. I believe in the processes of pure science. The problem with evolution is that science gives way to the basic human desire to devoid themselves of any moral responsibility.

Scientists have been teaching about atoms for how many years? The Greeks first came up with the idea of what we now call atoms around 600 BC. It wasn't until almost 1900 AD that the electron was 'discovered'. Jump forward 100 years and we now know without a doubt that atoms exist, yet we still don't know too much about them. I say all of this because the same is somewhat true for the theory of evolution. We know that animals evolve / adapt. Survival of the fittest does exist. I don't think anyone would really debate that. Humans have been roaming the planet for a long time. We have certainly come a long way since the pre-caveman days. Trying to prove exactly what happened when certain pre-humans started to slowly merge into 'modern day' humans is a big grey area that took place over many years. We do know that there were other types of humans that lived a long time ago. Neanderthals did exist. We have their bones AND we know that their DNA differed from current humans. Physically, they looked different. Their brains were also not as 'advanced', if you want to call it that, as ours are. One day definite proof for the 'missing link' will be found. Will it be soon? Maybe? But discounting the idea of evolution just because it hasn't been proven 110% yet is not very logical.

Quick Q for ya. You say we haven't found the missing link for any animal yet. I don't really know what you mean from that. We do know that birds and other animals evolved from dinosaurs. Are you talking about the pre-dinosaur stage? Finding proof from that far back in time would be very hard to find due to Earth changing so much. Maybe eventually though :P

/End 1:30 AM rant. Sorry if what I said above didn't make any sense. Too tired to proofread!

 

[JWG223]

No you don't. The alien or evolutionist babble don't explain things like human emotions, the afterlife, or our conscience. Frankly, substitute time for God in the creationist argument and you have what evolutions believe. Given enough time you can get anything from anything. The fact is, evolution defies what we know to be true. God confirms it. We just have to be humble enough to realize there is a judge to whom we will all answer- whether we believe He exists or not.

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But that's the crux of the issue. You're right, in my OPINION, evolution is not a currently working theory in the macro sense.
However, neither is magic.
That is how I view the concept of "God", as magic.

I don't mean to rile anyone or disrespect their beliefs, but it all boils down to an invisible being who does awesome and wonderful things and loves me very much and if I really and truly believe, I can talk to him. But I tried that for years and could not make out a response. So the advise was that I was looking for the wrong response, or some such. So I went about it again. Nada.

I know people who do all sorts of things, like bounce the basketball 3 times before a freethrow, or wear "special" jewelry or glasses or whatever before going to the boats to gamble. Or who have a very specific pre-swing routine at golf.

To me, this is what God really is. Something that the mind of man has created, as a talisman against the unknown. As a vengeance against those who cannot be punished by other people and a savior for the righteous who have had a poor go at life.

I never heard voices, saw angels (but I did see a lot of angles in college algebra, THOSE are real!), or felt any sort of divine presence of any sort.

To me, nothing about God makes sense except that I envy those who can believe in Him, as it must be very comforting to truly 100% feel like someone "has your back" and that "death is not the end". Whether you're right or wrong, if you're a true Christian (or many other religions, but I am discussing the Christian deity), then I just flat-out can't find fault in the lifestyle or anything of the sort.

No axe to grind, and certainly not "mad at God" (He doesn't exist, in my opinion, based on my nearly 28 years of experience, 20 or so of which were spent going from utter belief, to reaching out, to ultimately discovering that there is nothing out there).

I can make very solid arguments against the Biblical creation, and all manner of things, and that's ultimately why I left the Church. My pastor looked at his shoes, sighed, and said "Look, it boils down to faith". Faith in something that can't be shown or demonstrated wasn't worth thousands of dollars a year to me, so I walked out and have not been back. Angry? Nope. I'd happily go to Church if I visited someone and they were going and invited me. I know all of the songs, stories, and enjoy the fellowship. Just not something I will do on my own time.

Sorry for the large rant, but what I meant to say:

God only makes sense of why we are here, if you think God makes sense.


Now...I re-read Genesis 1, and here are my problems with it. :
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1
Genesis 1

New International Version (NIV)
The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. Okay, we get day and night from the sun and its interaction with the moon, and the celestial relationships between our planet, and them. Right?

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. Okay, now we have had 2 light/dark cycles.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day. Okay, now we have things that depend on photosynthesis, and a 3rd light/dark cycle.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. Wait...what? We already had a day and a night and light and dark. What's this!? He also made the stars. Okay...why can we see stars that we know to be many tens of thousands of light-years away, if they were all created 6-8,000 years ago, per creationism theories which I have heard? 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

My questions and comments are in red.

 

[bayoupirate]

There are some churches and faiths that accept the bible as 100% accurate and true as it is printed word for word.
Then there are others that believe that the bible requires some interpretation to find the original author (God's) message in the text. When I read Genesis, I hear the scientific explanation of the Big Bang and evolution. To me it's all the same story. Notice I said story. I appreciate everyone's respectful viewpoint.

If all else fails, read the New Testament.
Walk in the ways of Christ in your daily life.
Love your God.
Love your neighbor.

 

[JWG223]

There are some churches and faiths that accept the bible as 100% accurate and true as it is printed word for word.
Then there are others that believe that the bible requires some interpretation to find the original author (God's) message in the text. When I read Genesis, I hear the scientific explanation of the Big Bang and evolution. To me it's all the same story. Notice I said story. I appreciate everyone's respectful viewpoint.

If all else fails, read the New Testament.
Walk in the ways of Christ in your daily life.
Love your God.
Love your neighbor.

As an Atheist, I can agree with your concepts.
When I was a Christian, that caused me some SERIOUS stress.

The Bible has been translated multiple times from multiple languages, so the argument of "it needs interpreting" is a very valid one against taking it "word for word".

But...what do we spin and how? I have actually seen websites that justify all sorts of messed up stuff and spin texts to cover it. How do we know, to a lesser extent, that we are not just warping it to fit our views, vs. changing our views to reflect our Bible?

Since I think that we created a higher power, this causes me no strife, as each person will create their own version of the concept that suits themselves. To those who think that a higher power created them, though, as I used to believe, this is a very stressful thing. It boils down to "if I feel like I'm doing right...I am. vs. I need to figure out what's right, because God is an exacting God, as evidenced by the specificness of many parts of His message."


*Someone once complained that I capitalize "God" and "Jesus". They are proper nouns, and I respect what others hold to be sacred, as best I can. It is not some quit admission on my part that I secretly believe in God, but rather, and attempt at treating others correctly.

 

[buttanic]

Gonna be a lot of disappointed folks on both sides of this argument.

 

[bonewagon]

Sometimes I am reminded of the response someone came up with. Sounds something like "If both of us die and one doesn't believe in God or the afterlife and the other does; and, in fac,t there is a God and afterlife, it would be better to believe. As the non-believer will be very disappointed and the believer will just rot in the ground with no other recourse or accountability." Something like that. I just choose to believe. I am not trying to convince others. Just witnessing a bit. It is, and will continue to be, a grand argument and good to read. Thanks guys for listening again. And thanks for not getting personal or accusatory with each other. Nice discussion. Later...

 

[jimdana1942]

What is gravity?
Everything in the universe is made up of atoms.
All things organic and inorganic are made up completely of atoms.
Then why are rocks lifeless and organics full of life.
Is the breath of life the only difference between organic and inorganic?
What exactly is the breath of life?
Living things are all made from dust. Dust is inorganic. But yet we are alive!

 

[Armed Mage]

Sometimes I am reminded of the response someone came up with. Sounds something like "If both of us die and one doesn't believe in God or the afterlife and the other does; and, in fac,t there is a God and afterlife, it would be better to believe. As the non-believer will be very disappointed and the believer will just rot in the ground with no other recourse or accountability." Something like that. I just choose to believe. I am not trying to convince others. Just witnessing a bit. It is, and will continue to be, a grand argument and good to read. Thanks guys for listening again. And thanks for not getting personal or accusatory with each other. Nice discussion. Later...

That's called Pascal's Wager and it is generally considered one of the weakest arguments for the existence of God. It's not even about trying to prove the existence of a higher power as much as using fear to push the modern Christian idea of eternal punishment for not believing in the right god (which is a later doctrine that actually has very weak Biblical evidence but I'm not going to get into that here). It has no relevance outside the Christian paradigm.

 

[bonewagon]

Good stuff. Interesting reads. Again, I appreciate comments and knowing that we all believe what we believe and the reasons for such beliefs. Not trying to convince anyone of anything but stating my point of view. Thanks again for commenting without prejudice. Also, good time of the year to be discussing what we believe. Signing off and will continue to read more comments. Thanks guys and gals.