FN FiveSeven USG 5.7X28 Your Comments

[Sin-ster]

News flash: you're splitting hairs. Try to stay relevant.

The gun has low recoil and it can put a lot of rounds on target in no time. End of story.

If someone makes a specific claim that's entirely unsubstantiated, addressing that claim directly is entirely relevant. It's the foundation for logical debate.

The pistol has low recoil, fine. It also has a humdrum trigger and questionable sights. The cat's meow, it clearly is not. If it were head-and-shoulders above anything else, there'd be no need to exaggerate and falsify data in order to make a point. A bold faced lie in regards to capabilities brings the entire set of comments about the greatness of the platform into question, long before anything else. For example-- sweeping claims of superiority and cited testimony of experts means absolutely d**k when it's revealed that the whole thing hinges on *one* shooting instance-- as per the SWAT officer you quoted a few posts back.

News flash: your pet pistol is a turd. Your knowledge base on the subject is grounded in a sales pitch. Eloquent though it may be, your presentation of the argument is based on fallacious assumptions, falsified information, and to be as generous as possible, a "moderate" bit of personal experience (without much, if any, trigger time on other platforms to provide a counter perspective).

And we haven't even touched on reliability and durability. But lemme guess... You've got several hundred problem free rounds through your pistol at an indoor range without a single malfunction!

 

[dwr461]

I agree with this point. The FiveseveN is low recoil and allows for inexperienced shooters to more quickly get back on target. But I also understand that the reason it has lower recoil than 9mm is because it has less power than 9mm. For every action there is an equal and oppposite reaction. Low recoil must equal lower power. You cannot ignore the physics of the situation. When you say lower recoil, you're saying lower power. They are inseperatable.

I will conceed that at the velocities the FiveseveN is generating will more cause the hollow points to expand at a larger percentage of the time. However I'm not convinced that's a good thing. The bullet just doesn't have enough mass to penetrate deeply.

Dave

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

and a 9mm expanded to .60" has a greater chance of striking and damaging said structure than a 5.7 that isn't nearly as big. Further, the 9mm has a greater chance of maintaining its integrity and ability to destroy this structure if it hits an arm etc first, which would defeat the fragmenting versions of 5.7's entire claim to enhanced lethality over a singular wound tract.

Okay, we need to clear a few things up because you seem a bit confused.

Let's start with the size of a 9mm bullet vs a 5.7mm bullet. I will translate it into inches since most of us are Americans and I think that will help put things into perspective. The 5.7mm bullet is .224 inches wide (basically the same as NATO 5.56 which I'm sure everybody is familiar with). A 9mm bullet is .355 inches wide. That comes to one hundred thirty-one thousands difference which is roughly equal to the size of the following underscore mark _. "But wait!" you say, "You're not taking into account the expansion of a modern hollowpoint round!" I could respond with, "I didn't mention the fact that the 5.7mm hollowpoint is nearly an inch long and consistently tumbles after penetration either." But there's a method to my madness. Let's see what one other guys thinks...

Dr. Di Maio, a forensic pathologist with over 40 years experience in his field is recognized by numerous independent sources as the nation's leading authority on gunshot wounds (and all this time you thought it was a dentist with a ballistics hobby and a cult following). Drawing on his experience and credibility, he illustrates how illogical the common obsession with bullet diameter and/or expansion is, and stresses shot placement and medical response time as being much more critical in the following quotes:

"One cannot examine the wounds in a body and say that the individual was shot with a hollow-point rather than a solid-lead bullet."

"Is there any situation in which a hollow-point handgun bullet will invariably stop an individual “dead in his tracks”? Yes, if the bullet injures a vital area of the brain, the brain stem, or the cervical spinal cord. But any bullet, regardless of style or caliber, injuring these organs will cause instant incapacitation. It is the nature of the structure injured, not the nature of the bullet, that causes the incapacitation."

"There is no objective proof that in real-life situations mushrooming of a bullet plays a significant role in increasing lethality or the “stopping power” of the bullet."

"In reality, the speed at which a wounded individual is transported to the hospital is a greater determining factor as to whether the individual will live or die than the type of ammunition used."

Now that we're all up to speed on the "size issue", we can apply the opinion of a leading pathologist with four decades of experience to the question that asks, "What is the best gun?" Our answer should simply be, "The one we shoot most consistently accurate under stress." I would also add If I may be permitted, that capacity should play a part in the decision as well as each shot available is one more chance at hitting the "stop" (CNS) button.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

This is soo much more entertaining than the old 9 vs .40 vs .45 threads. Lets get the .357Sig and .45GAP guys in here to tell us how those rounds are the bee's knee's too!

5.7 threads are the best! They draw reactions out of "dyed-in-the-wool" common caliber folks like no other. And it's really strange to me, it's not like the Five-seveN pistol is going to somehow make their preferred gun obsolete. Perhaps it's just the often knee-jerk reaction to new technology that gets some people's feathers all ruffled. The Five-seveN/P90 does represent a snapshot into the future as guns will have less and less recoil and faster and faster projectiles. I would imagine that in a hundred years a common pistol will fire a very tiny projectile or just pure energy at around the speed of light and have no recoil whatsoever. Recoil is fun when giving a big gun to a first-time shooter. But recoil sucks when it comes time to do business. Recoil is without a doubt the single greatest obstacle to stopping a threat quickly unless your first shot is a bullseye.

 

[JWG223]

So can .22lr.

I can say that 5.7 out of a 16" barrel won't dent 3/8" mild steel at 50 yards.

To be fair, neither will a .45, 9mm, or 357. Then again, handguns < rifles.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

5.7 threads are the best! They draw reactions out of "dyed-in-the-wool" common caliber folks like no other. And it's really strange to me, it's not like the Five-seveN pistol is going to somehow make their preferred gun obsolete. Perhaps it's just the often knee-jerk reaction to new technology that gets some people's feathers all ruffled. The Five-seveN/P90 does represent a snapshot into the future as guns will have less and less recoil and faster and faster projectiles. I would imagine that in a hundred years a common pistol will fire a very tiny projectile or just pure energy at around the speed of light and have no recoil whatsoever. Recoil is fun when giving a big gun to a first-time shooter. But recoil sucks when it comes time to do business. Recoil is without a doubt the single greatest obstacle to stopping a threat quickly unless your first shot is a bullseye.

Not really.

I've got atleast 28 different Calibers, probably over 30...
Got quite a few C&R guns etc

And I've tried the 5.7


It just doesn't measure up.

Ya'll go ahead and argue... I did my looking back aways and FOUND the consistent failures to stop.

Enjoying watching the arguement, but that one doesn't work.

 

[Devilneck]

I think the 5.7's ability to kill effectively was demonstrated at Ft Hood folks.

Anyone care to argue that?

 

[JWG223]

5.7 threads are the best! They draw reactions out of "dyed-in-the-wool" common caliber folks like no other. Not really, I am more than happy to adopt new things, and considered and heavily researched the 5.7x28 round before deciding against it, as much for the platform as the round itself. And it's really strange to me, it's not like the Five-seveN pistol is going to somehow make their preferred gun obsolete. No, not unless hunting vermin, in which case I think it is the best thing since sliced bread most likely. Perhaps it's just the often knee-jerk reaction to new technology that gets some people's feathers all ruffled. Negative. It is the fact that it does nothing that a 9mm won't do except punch body armor without trauma plates, and it cannot do a lot of things 9mm can, such as expand to nearly .80 caliber or punch through a windshield and still penetrate 12-14". Further, 9mm is cheaper to practice with and can be had in a CCW'able (well, MOREso) package than can the 5.7. Weight means nothing if the pistol is that size. The Five-seveN/P90 does represent a snapshot into the future as guns will have less and less recoil and faster and faster projectiles. How do you figure? It's like 5.56 lite. Give up a few hundred fps and cut projectile weight in half? How is this a step forward in lethality unless you're using it as a bullet-hose? Yes, the design is futuristic, and a darn good one, but the caliber is a very "niche" caliber. It's meant to replace the MP5 in competition with HK's 4.6 PDW. Neither the 4.6 or the 5.7 have replaced the MP5 in the arsenals of those who use them (Yes, it can penetrate body-armor without trauma plates, but it is FAR! louder than a suppressed MP5, kindof a trade-off, but if body-armor is to be involved, the 5.7 is a mediocre choice anyway). I have heard rumor that the USSS is dumping it due to dismal performance, but I cannot substantiate that at this time. However, you will see precious little use outside of the USSS (who also fields the 357SIG, which is another hot topic) or some police department with a hyper-sensetive chief/committe that thinks overpenetration is the worst thing that could ever happen. Similar to departments that field AR-15's loaded with Nosler BT's that keep getting officers killed for lack of penetration. I would imagine that in a hundred years a common pistol will fire a very tiny projectile or just pure energy at around the speed of light and have no recoil whatsoever. Have you read those old excerts from Popular Science that tell us what the year 2000 should have brought? I think you are doing similar. A bit fantastical. The truth is, there have been no REAL advances in the assault-weapon world beyond the AR-15 and AK-47 which are half a century old, give/take in either case. Sure, we have the SCAR and other guns, but how are they "novel" compared to either the AK or AR/M4? Not so much, just another wrapper on the same package. In fact, I have a book from the late 70's/early 80's that said just what you are saying. It stated that projectiles would get faster and faster, ammunition would go case-less, etc. However, what are we doing? playing with the 6.8SPC, toying around with the .300BLK, etc. The 5.7 and 4.6 are the only efforts on that other front of which I am aware, for the purpose of war (obviously not counting .17 HMR, etc.)Recoil is fun when giving a big gun to a first-time shooter. Only if you like teaching bad habits. But recoil sucks when it comes time to do business. Recoil is without a doubt the single greatest obstacle to stopping a threat quickly unless your first shot is a bullseye. No, lack of training is. I have seen Jerry Miculek in action, in person, dual-wielding (sorry, love the term) .45 ACP revolvers. He dumped all rounds into a piece of typing paper at 15 feet in roughly 1 second. It sounded like an MP5 burst. Now, I am not saying that we can all do this of course, but what I am saying is that if you start training and stop ham-stringing yourself by picking equipment that compromises every other area to make up for just one of your personal deficiencies, the results will be much better. People who tout the 5.7 for the sole virtue of lack of recoil remind me of the guys I see in the gym doing only 75-80% ROM because they have loaded up the bar with too much weight. You will never see anyone who has progressed to the peak of the powerlifting sport doing this unless to break a plateau at a certain weak-point in their lift. Such it is with shooters. I am FAR FROM someone who is going to waggle their dick around claiming to be god's gift, so don't take this as me talking down from some supposed position of excellence. However, what I am saying is that in ANYTHING--shooting too--if you use compromise equipment or technique in place of PROPER or more frequent training, you will never be as good as you could be.

Red.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

So you buy a $1000+ pistol and stupidly expensive ammo to achieve 9mm performance? I don't get it. Looks like just another group of guys trying to feel special. Every failed, bastard gun and caliber has the group of loyalists/cultists that will never give up on it even after the rest of the world has moved on.

No, I bought a Five-seveN pistol with ammo that costs the same as .45 ACP ammo because it makes me feel VERY confident when I shoot it at the range and observe my double-tap groups. I bought a Five-seveN after reading the ballistics reports from people that have actually tested it in materials like ballistic gelatin, clay, water jugs, phone books, fruit, pork shoulders, hogs, deer, coyotes, moose (head), steel, plywood, residential doors/walls, car doors, car hoods, and anything and everything else you could ever imagine.

A list of why I own/carry the Five-seveN:

1) Carries 21 rounds (or 31 rounds with a 1.5inch extension) and weighs less full than a Glock 17 empty. That means I barely feel it when carrying it concealed. 5.7mm weighs 50% less than 9mm.

2) Shoots as flat as a rifle making ringing a steel target at 100 yds a breeze.

3) Has minimal recoil allowing multiple, quick shots to land in surprisingly tight patterns. All of this without being a member of Team Glock I might add.

4) Will pierce Level IIIa armor leaving a massive hole between the armor and the beginning of the gel block large enough to put most of a man's hand in and still penetrate 10 inches into calibrated ballistic gelatin (using the ammo I carry).

5) Imparts substantial damage (similar to a .45 ACP) on unarmored targets with sufficient penetration (using the ammo I carry).

6) Makes a helluva lot of noise (think 10mm) and a huge fireball which is both fun and provides for a psychological impact if I ever have to unleash it towards a threat.

7) Enjoys an intelligent bullet design that allows tremendous penetration with fairly rapid energy loss through bullet tumble minimizing over-penetration and thus liability.

8) Pisses off gun control people as well as crusty common caliber folks.

 

[swamper]

Just throwing this out there.

.224" dia. gives 0.0394 sq. in.
.355" dia. gives 0.0989798 or 0.1000 sq. in.

GO!!!

 

[JWG223]

I think the 5.7's ability to kill effectively was demonstrated at Ft Hood folks.

Anyone care to argue that?

Lets look at the shots that only wounded people and see if you like it as much. The only people killed were killed by shots that would have had the same outcome had a .22LR been used. So here are a few of the many people that DIDN'T die...

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/military/article/Fort-Hood-shooting-victims-847227.php

Amber Bahr, 19, of Random Lake, Wis., was shot in the stomach.
Pvt. Najee Hull, 21, of Chicago was shot three times, once in the leg and twice in the back.
Justin Johnson, 21, of Punta Gorda, Fla., was shot in the chest and leg.
Shawn Manning, 33, formerly of Redman, Ore., was shot six times
Sgt. Kimberly Munley, 34, of Killeen is the Fort Hood civilian police officer who was shot multiple times by the suspect.
Sgt. John Pagel, 28, of North Freedom, Wis., who was shot in the arm and chest.
Spc. Matthew Cook, 30, of Binghamton, N.Y., was shot in the abdomen

All those people lived. The case FOR the 5.7 in this unfortunate incident is much weaker than the case AGAINST it.

 

[JWG223]

No, I bought a Five-seveN pistol with ammo that costs the same as .45 ACP ammo because it makes me feel VERY confident when I shoot it at the range and observe my double-tap groups. I bought a Five-seveN after reading the ballistics reports from people that have actually tested it in materials like ballistic gelatin, clay, water jugs, phone books, fruit, pork shoulders, hogs, deer, coyotes, moose (head), steel, plywood, residential doors/walls, car doors, car hoods, and anything and everything else you could ever imagine.

A list of why I own/carry the Five-seveN:

1) Carries 21 rounds (or 31 rounds with a 1.5inch extension) and weighs less full than a Glock 17 empty. That means I barely feel it when carrying it concealed. 5.7mm weighs 50% less than 9mm. It's huge. Who cares about weight when it's such a PITA to conceal? Capacity is nice, but the XD-M holds what, 19, 20 rounds of 9mm? A Glock 19 with a happy stick holds 34.

2) Shoots as flat as a rifle making ringing a steel target at 100 yds a breeze. If you want to shoot things at rifle distance use a rifle. You have no business engaging a threat at 100 yards with a pistol as a civilian, or with a rifle for that matter most likely.

3) Has minimal recoil allowing multiple, quick shots to land in surprisingly tight patterns. All of this without being a member of Team Glock I might add.
Well and good, I can do just fine with my 9mm. It makes bigger holes, too.

4) Will pierce Level IIIa armor leaving a massive hole between the armor and the beginning of the gel block large enough to put most of a man's hand in and still penetrate 10 inches into calibrated ballistic gelatin (using the ammo I carry). Body armor is the only "excuse" I can't dispute.

5) Imparts substantial damage (similar to a .45 ACP) on unarmored targets with sufficient penetration (using the ammo I carry).
Depends on the .45. Compare it to HST, and it will come up seriously short. Put it through a windshield and it also comes up pretty short. Much more likely than a vest is a car.

6) Makes a helluva lot of noise (think 10mm) and a huge fireball which is both fun and provides for a psychological impact if I ever have to unleash it towards a threat. Certainly don't want that. Destroying even MORE of my situational awareness by blinding myself and deafening myself during a deadly confrontation which might involve other, unseen assailants is the LAST thing on my list of desires.

7) Enjoys an intelligent bullet design that allows tremendous penetration with fairly rapid energy loss through bullet tumble minimizing over-penetration and thus liability. You are more likely to miss, anyway.

8) Pisses off gun control people as well as crusty common caliber folks.

Not really on #8's latter point. Noone is "mad" at the 5.7 (except the gun-control people, who...hate guns...in YOUR hands...). It's just that we are not impressed with it except as what you seem to want to use it for--a toy. If you want a loud bang and big fireball and to dump rounds into a target and shoot things at 100 yards, it sounds like you got what you wanted--a toy.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

Penetration on what?

After watching this video there shouldn't be one more comment about the 5.7x28mm being a poor barrier penetrator.

Plenty of handguns in more useful calibers are also lightweight and have plenty manageable recoil with high capacity magazines. They are a helluva lot more compact, as well.

Have you ever even held a Five-seveN? Nothing is comparable in weight. The Five-seveN feels like a squirt gun in your hand. Manageable recoil? What does that mean? The only common Leo caliber that even comes close is the 9mm and it doesn't feel that close when you shoot both back to back. As far as high-capacity magazines are concerned that is subjective. Five-seveN owners enjoy flush-fitting mags and a 21 round capacity. If they want 31 rounds they can add the 1.5 inch extension. If you want 31 rounds on a Glock your gun will be nearly 11 inches tall.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

Lightweight? Who cares, it's too big to carry concealed.

When I'm walking around I totally forget I have a gun on me - being practically weightless helps with that.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

For the cost of a FiveSeven and a case of ammo, I could have three Glocks and two cases of ammo. Which is the wiser decision?

For the cost of a Mercedes sedan I could buy five Ford Focuses. Which is the wiser decision?

 

[JWG223]

After watching this video there shouldn't be one more comment about the 5.7x28mm being a poor barrier penetrator.






Have you ever even held a Five-seveN? Nothing is comparable in weight. The Five-seveN feels like a squirt gun in your hand. Manageable recoil? What does that mean? The only common Leo caliber that even comes close is the 9mm and it doesn't feel that close when you shoot both back to back. As far as high-capacity magazines are concerned that is subjective. Five-seveN owners enjoy flush-fitting mags and a 21 round capacity. If they want 31 rounds they can add the 1.5 inch extension. If you want 31 rounds on a Glock your gun will be nearly 11 inches tall.

I have seen the 5.7 go through four level II vests. I still don't want one. In this video, I see a man shooting...a car hood backed by a piece of meat? If you want to make your self-defense decisions based on a thin steel hood baked by some pork roast and a Slippery when Wet sign,, be my guest, but I think it's absurd and you won't convince me otherwise.

 

[Sin-ster]

It's like watching a bunch of CoD fans talk about the real world virtues of their favorite weapon from the game...

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

Doing a quick google of what people who shoot people for a living have to say...it sucks. I guess that's all that matters in the end--how does it do? Well, those that have seen it do, say it does poorly.

If your Googling is landing you in a few select forums run by a few select, biased cult leaders. I could drag Leos and military-types in here in five seconds that would disagree with whatever you have been reading over at Factfighter.net.

You can read all the "I was knee-capped with a 5.7!" blogs you want, but when the people pulling the triggers say it sucks, where does that leave your assessment of its efficacy?

I have never seen a person at the range or read about someone online that actually pulled the trigger on a Five-seveN and said, "it sucks." In fact, all my personal experience with handing my gun over at the range has resulted in people being amazed and mentioning that the Five-seveN is on their "short-list." If you are referring to its "sucky" reputation as being unable to reach somebody's CNS thus having to be pulled from duty; please provide a link to a departmental announcement - even a newspaper article with quotes from a department member would suffice.

The 5.7 round was designed to compete with H&K's 4.6 PDW in the P90 in full-auto. It was meant to pepper the target. To overwhelm the target with a massive number of rounds in a very short period of time, while defeating body-armor (Hence the SS190's construction).

Would that be akin to how I pepper my pasta? Could we compare the P90 to pepper spray now based on this deduction? Gary Roberts DDS once said that a P90 bullet barely broke the skin on a human being stopped by a rib. That's about equal to a high-powered pellet rifle by my calculations...

If you have a full-auto P90, yes, I think you have a decent little PDW. If you don't, you have some bastardized creation adapted to the legal constraints of the civilian market firing the most advanced .22 magnum bullet known to man.

Okay, so PS90's will fire - the appropriate ammo - at nearly 3400 fps and 670 ft-lbs of energy. Does that sound like a .22 magnum to everybody else? So the 5.56 NATO is an advanced .22 magnum as well huh? Ok, I understand now.

 

[swamper]

It's like watching a bunch of CoD fans talk about the real world virtues of their favorite weapon from the game...

Dude. CoD is the most realest to life game out there. What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?



I admit; this has been fun.

 

[Devilneck]

Let's give the full picture:
It has quite proven it's lethal capability. It is not something that you can shoot someone in the arm and kill them with shock. It is not a .44 mag. or a 10mm. Small caliber bullets tend to yeild similar results. Part of why a 5.56 was chosen by the military was because a wounded soldier consumes resources for the enemy. An outright kill just takes one man out of the picture.

Many folks have lived through being shot with much more powerful weapons, keep that in mind too. Headshots, through the brain. That Giffords congresswoman is a prime example. Numerous folks in combat too. Survivor or not, most of these folks were most likely out of the fight.

By no means am I saying the 5.7 is a wonder gun capable of shooting flying elephants out of the sky. I'm saying that it's quite capable of killing, and being an effective round in combat.

It would absolutely not be my choice to carry. I want at a minimum a .40, I'll take a .45, but prefer a .44 mag.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/military/article/Fort-Hood-shooting-victims-847227.php

Killed
Michael Grant Cahill, 62, of Cameron was a physician's assistant and retired CWO who was working on the post as a contracted civilian
Major L. Eduardo Caraveo, 52, of Woodbridge, Va.
Staff Sgt. Justin M. DeCrow, 32, of Plymouth, Ind.
Capt. John P. Gaffaney, 54, of San Diego, Calif.
Spc. Frederick Greene, 29, of Mountain City, Tenn.
Spc. Jason Dean Hunt, 22, of Tillman, Okla.
Sgt. Amy Krueger, 29, of Kiel, Wis.
Pfc. Aaron Thomas Nemelka, 19, of West Jordan, Utah
Pfc. Michael Pearson, 22, of Bolingbrook, Ill.
Capt. Russell Seager, 41, of Racine, Wis.
Pvt. Francheska Velez, 21, of Chicago. She was pregnant.
Lt. Col. Juanita Warman, 55, of Havre de Grace, Md.
Spc. Kham Xiong, 23, of St. Paul, Minn.

Wounded
Sgt. Patrick Blue III, 23, of Belcourt, N.D., was hit in the side by bullet fragments during the attack
Amber Bahr, 19, of Random Lake, Wis., was shot in the stomach.
Keara Bono Torkelson, 21, of Ostego, Mo., was shot in the back left shoulder.
Alan Carroll, 20, of Bridgewater, N.J., was shot three times.
Reservist Dorothy "Dorrie" Carskadon of Rockford, Ill., was critically injured.
Staff Sgt. Joy Clark, 27, of Des Moines suffered a gunshot wound
Spc. Matthew Cook, 30, of Binghamton, N.Y., was shot in the abdomen
Staff Sgt. Chad Davis of Eufaula, Ala., was wounded.
Pvt. Joey Foster, 21, of Ogden, Utah, was shot in the hip
Cpl. Nathan Hewitt, 26, of West Lafayette, Ind.
Pvt. Najee Hull, 21, of Chicago was shot three times, once in the leg and twice in the back.
Staff Sgt. Eric Williams Jackson, 39, of Beaumont, was shot in the forearm.
Justin Johnson, 21, of Punta Gorda, Fla., was shot in the chest and leg.
Staff. Sgt. Alonzo Lunsford, of Richmond County, N.C., was shot multiple times.
Shawn Manning, 33, formerly of Redman, Ore., was shot six times
Army 2nd Lt. Brandy Mason, of Monessen, was wounded.
Reserve Spc. Grant Moxon, 23, of Lodi, Wis., was shot in the leg.
Sgt. Kimberly Munley, 34, of Killeen is the Fort Hood civilian police officer who was shot multiple times by the suspect.
Sgt. John Pagel, 28, of North Freedom, Wis., who was shot in the arm and chest.
Chief Warrant Officer Chris Royal, 38, of Eclectic, Ala., was shot three times.
Maj. Randy Royer of Dothan, Ala., was shot.
Pvt. Raymondo "Ray" Saucedo, 26, of Greenville, Mich., had a bullet graze his arm.
George Stratton III, 18, of Post Falls, Idaho, was shot in the shoulder.
Patrick Zeigler, 28, of Orange County, Fla., was critically wounded.




Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/mi...ood-shooting-victims-847227.php#ixzz1fhPWzivF​