FN FiveSeven USG 5.7X28 Your Comments

[goteron]

Can you mount an RMR on a 5.7?

I wouldnt mind a suppressed P90 for the wife in a HD scenario. No reloading, quiet, short, lightweight... etc....

I did hear from a reliable source that the P90 magazines become a mess if dropped.

 

[JWG223]

If your Googling is landing you in a few select forums run by a few select, biased cult leaders. I could drag Leos and military-types in here in five seconds that would disagree with whatever you have been reading over at Factfighter.net.



I have never seen a person at the range or read about someone online that actually pulled the trigger on a Five-seveN and said, "it sucks." In fact, all my personal experience with handing my gun over at the range has resulted in people being amazed and mentioning that the Five-seveN is on their "short-list." If you are referring to its "sucky" reputation as being unable to reach somebody's CNS thus having to be pulled from duty; please provide a link to a departmental announcement - even a newspaper article with quotes from a department member would suffice.



Would that be akin to how I pepper my pasta? Could we compare the P90 to pepper spray now based on this deduction? Gary Roberts DDS once said that a P90 bullet barely broke the skin on a human being stopped by a rib. That's about equal to a high-powered pellet rifle by my calculations...




Okay, so PS90's will fire - the appropriate ammo - at nearly 3400 fps and 670 ft-lbs of energy. Does that sound like a .22 magnum to everybody else? So the 5.56 NATO is an advanced .22 magnum as well huh? Ok, I understand now.

As to your 3400fps and 670# of energy...it sounds...familiar....
.17 hornet, anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_Hornet


Yep. that's the rifle I want for a 220# PCP'ed up home invader. My good 'ol .17 Hornet. Or the PS90. Same thing if I handload.

 

[JWG223]

Can you mount an RMR on a 5.7?

I wouldnt mind a suppressed P90 for the wife in a HD scenario. No reloading, quiet, short, lightweight... etc....

I did hear from a reliable source that the P90 magazines become a mess if dropped.

Yes, there is a tri-rail version.

Or you could get an AR and the Surefire 60 or 100 round mags. I bet she can handle the weight and recoil of a Colt 6920, which is a lot cheaper than the PS90 to boot.

The magazines (PS90) crack when dropped.

 

[JWG223]

Let's give the full picture:
It has quite proven it's lethal capability. It is not something that you can shoot someone in the arm and kill them with shock. It is not a .44 mag. or a 10mm. Small caliber bullets tend to yeild similar results. Part of why a 5.56 was chosen by the military was because a wounded soldier consumes resources for the enemy. An outright kill just takes one man out of the picture. I do not believe this is factual. Can you back it up?

Many folks have lived through being shot with much more powerful weapons, keep that in mind too. Headshots, through the brain. That Giffords congresswoman is a prime example. Numerous folks in combat too. Survivor or not, most of these folks were most likely out of the fight. Correct, which is why citing this, or that shooting incident is a bit slanted.

By no means am I saying the 5.7 is a wonder gun capable of shooting flying elephants out of the sky. I'm saying that it's quite capable of killing, and being an effective round in combat. With proper shot placement, yes it can kill and yes it can be effective. However, there are much better options available.

It would absolutely not be my choice to carry. I want at a minimum a .40, I'll take a .45, but prefer a .44 mag.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/military/article/Fort-Hood-shooting-victims-847227.php

Killed
Michael Grant Cahill, 62, of Cameron was a physician's assistant and retired CWO who was working on the post as a contracted civilian
Major L. Eduardo Caraveo, 52, of Woodbridge, Va.
Staff Sgt. Justin M. DeCrow, 32, of Plymouth, Ind.
Capt. John P. Gaffaney, 54, of San Diego, Calif.
Spc. Frederick Greene, 29, of Mountain City, Tenn.
Spc. Jason Dean Hunt, 22, of Tillman, Okla.
Sgt. Amy Krueger, 29, of Kiel, Wis.
Pfc. Aaron Thomas Nemelka, 19, of West Jordan, Utah
Pfc. Michael Pearson, 22, of Bolingbrook, Ill.
Capt. Russell Seager, 41, of Racine, Wis.
Pvt. Francheska Velez, 21, of Chicago. She was pregnant.
Lt. Col. Juanita Warman, 55, of Havre de Grace, Md.
Spc. Kham Xiong, 23, of St. Paul, Minn.

Wounded
Sgt. Patrick Blue III, 23, of Belcourt, N.D., was hit in the side by bullet fragments during the attack
Amber Bahr, 19, of Random Lake, Wis., was shot in the stomach.
Keara Bono Torkelson, 21, of Ostego, Mo., was shot in the back left shoulder.
Alan Carroll, 20, of Bridgewater, N.J., was shot three times.
Reservist Dorothy "Dorrie" Carskadon of Rockford, Ill., was critically injured.
Staff Sgt. Joy Clark, 27, of Des Moines suffered a gunshot wound
Spc. Matthew Cook, 30, of Binghamton, N.Y., was shot in the abdomen
Staff Sgt. Chad Davis of Eufaula, Ala., was wounded.
Pvt. Joey Foster, 21, of Ogden, Utah, was shot in the hip
Cpl. Nathan Hewitt, 26, of West Lafayette, Ind.
Pvt. Najee Hull, 21, of Chicago was shot three times, once in the leg and twice in the back.
Staff Sgt. Eric Williams Jackson, 39, of Beaumont, was shot in the forearm.
Justin Johnson, 21, of Punta Gorda, Fla., was shot in the chest and leg.
Staff. Sgt. Alonzo Lunsford, of Richmond County, N.C., was shot multiple times.
Shawn Manning, 33, formerly of Redman, Ore., was shot six times
Army 2nd Lt. Brandy Mason, of Monessen, was wounded.
Reserve Spc. Grant Moxon, 23, of Lodi, Wis., was shot in the leg.
Sgt. Kimberly Munley, 34, of Killeen is the Fort Hood civilian police officer who was shot multiple times by the suspect.
Sgt. John Pagel, 28, of North Freedom, Wis., who was shot in the arm and chest.
Chief Warrant Officer Chris Royal, 38, of Eclectic, Ala., was shot three times.
Maj. Randy Royer of Dothan, Ala., was shot.
Pvt. Raymondo "Ray" Saucedo, 26, of Greenville, Mich., had a bullet graze his arm.
George Stratton III, 18, of Post Falls, Idaho, was shot in the shoulder.
Patrick Zeigler, 28, of Orange County, Fla., was critically wounded.




Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/mi...ood-shooting-victims-847227.php#ixzz1fhPWzivF​

Red

 

[Nomad.2nd]

I think the 5.7's ability to kill effectively was demonstrated at Ft Hood folks.

Anyone care to argue that?

Yes

I have never seen a person at the range or read about someone online that actually pulled the trigger on a Five-seveN and said, "it sucks." In fact, all my personal experience with handing my gun over at the range has resulted in people being amazed and mentioning that the Five-seveN is on their "short-list." .

Yes you have.

 

[Sin-ster]

Yes you have.

Count me as #2. I genuinely prefer the PMR 30 for pure "fun factor"-- when it runs properly, at any rate.

And there was far too much gas and powder in the face shooting the Five-seveN suppressed.

I wouldn't own either. And carry one? Pshaw.

 

[sonanth]

Dude. CoD is the most realest to life game out there.

Before that it was Counterstrike .

 

[ericlosh]

Before that it was Counterstrike .

CS for the win

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

I've seen lots and lots of real world shootings. Handgun caliber HP's almost always expand in ballistic gel and very infrequently expand in people. So what a round does in high tech jello has little importance to me.

Now you're starting to get it. But even if it does expand, the permanent wound channel observed in autopsy is indistinguishable from an unexpanded hollowpoint. The bottom line is this, when dealing with pistol calibers, shot placement is key. As long as you can reach the vital organs which are located 5-7 inches into an adult man's chest, you are going to incapacitate him just as quickly with a 5.7 as you are with a .45.

Here's the problem, a 23grain bullet traveling at 2800 fps sounds great and creates nearly 400 ftlbs of force. Sounds great huh? What the heck's a ftlb? That measure is also meaningless since after a bullet hits something the important formula is linear momentum. We're not interested in impact force but rather linear momentum. Foot pounds is used by gun writers to sell ammunition to people who flunked physics.

That's a good point. FN's weakest factory round that they sell produces around 275 ft-lbs of energy yet does horrible things to 200 lb deer and hogs. When you cut them open, you would have thought they were hit with a much more "powerful" round. That reminds me of this guy on another forum (I have full documentation of the kill and photos if you like) that shot a 220lb hog with his Five-seveN pistol and SS197 (the weakest factory) ammo from around 25 yards. He hit it in the nugget and it was a one shot stop. When he cut it open and revealed a golf ball sized cavity behind this hog's rather thick skull, his buddy (who was a 5.7 detractor) said and I quote, "HOLY SH**!!!, that lil bullet did that!!!?"

P.S. Who uses a 23 grain bullet? There is no such thing in 5.7x28mm...

Linear Momentum is P=mv. (P=momentum, M=mass, V= velocity) You'll notice that velocity is no longer squared and mass is now on an equal footing. This is why a 115 grain 9mm+P penetrates just as well as a 124gr non +P loading. So in order for light bullets to penetrate adequately they must not expand and fragment. (Bullets DO NOT explode. There are no explosives in them. Explosives create additional force by the addition of an explosive agent, fragmentation does not.) It's very simple physics at this point to see what happens to this projectile. The reason 22 WMR isn't used for self defense is b/c it doesn't have gun writers trying to sell it as such but FiveseveN does. A 124 grain 9mm will penetrate deeply enough to cause major damage to the large organs and blood vessels. At 9 inches a 5.7 will not.

Dave

Blah, blah, blah. Do you even know where the organs are located in a human body? Don't let the FBI's arbitrary penetration depth minimums (in ballistic gelatin) confuse you with reality. If you don't hit somebody in the arm or through their arse first, you are going to kill them with roughly 6 inches of penetration to the chest. This is why itty bitty rounds like the 22LR have killed so many people. It doesn't take much. That being said, 12 inches is a nice round number and I guess is the maximum you would want a pistol round to penetrate before you start to have liability issues like over-penetration. There are lots of 5.7mm rounds that satisfy the "FBI minimums" so it's all a moot point anyway.

 

[ericlosh]

No, I bought a Five-seveN pistol with ammo that costs the same as .45 ACP ammo because it makes me feel VERY confident when I shoot it at the range and observe my double-tap groups. I bought a Five-seveN after reading the ballistics reports from people that have actually tested it in materials like ballistic gelatin, clay, water jugs, phone books, fruit, pork shoulders, hogs, deer, coyotes, moose (head), steel, plywood, residential doors/walls, car doors, car hoods, and anything and everything else you could ever imagine.

A list of why I own/carry the Five-seveN:

1) Carries 21 rounds (or 31 rounds with a 1.5inch extension) and weighs less full than a Glock 17 empty. That means I barely feel it when carrying it concealed. 5.7mm weighs 50% less than 9mm.

2) Shoots as flat as a rifle making ringing a steel target at 100 yds a breeze.

3) Has minimal recoil allowing multiple, quick shots to land in surprisingly tight patterns. All of this without being a member of Team Glock I might add.

4) Will pierce Level IIIa armor leaving a massive hole between the armor and the beginning of the gel block large enough to put most of a man's hand in and still penetrate 10 inches into calibrated ballistic gelatin (using the ammo I carry).

5) Imparts substantial damage (similar to a .45 ACP) on unarmored targets with sufficient penetration (using the ammo I carry).

6) Makes a helluva lot of noise (think 10mm) and a huge fireball which is both fun and provides for a psychological impact if I ever have to unleash it towards a threat.

7) Enjoys an intelligent bullet design that allows tremendous penetration with fairly rapid energy loss through bullet tumble minimizing over-penetration and thus liability.

8) Pisses off gun control people as well as crusty common caliber folks.

as far as shooting at 100 yards go, heres a man shooting a glock 27 stock except for nightsights at 230 yards
i dont think theres too much of a substitute for practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMEg4y54Dk

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

Where to begin...

1) The theme of the entire video is "Accurizing"-- i.e. trigger work. He ended up with a bit over 3#-- half of what it was out of the box. So "competition" trigger.
2) Even you admit that it's a sales pitch-- so pardon any logical skepticism about his honesty.
3) The first run isn't 1 second. Those are not sub-.2 splits, and certainly not with a 6 pound trigger. More importantly-- we have no way to verify his hits. I'd wager that they're not good.
4) The second run is also not substantiated by a timer; there's no target visible; you can clearly see a round go off with the muzzle near the peak of its rise. He also has a long pause between the first and second break-- meaning the next 5 have to be LESS than .08 splits (notably so). And that's not .51 seconds. It's not even .6, which is the fastest my CED7000 will run a par time for comparison. He's only 4 shots in by that point.

I appreciate the goal of dispelling myths. I appreciate even more that you choose to dispel them by quoting random fanboi YouTube videos without any verifiable facts contained within. I sincerely hope you're trolling, and just extremely dedicated to the cause.

Otherwise, the whole "crazy and insane comments from those that don't understand the platform" warrants only one response:

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Ummm... okay. So was it .61 then? Nice attempt at saving face though. Unfortunately for you, most of the readers of this thread will understand the main point of the video, and that is that the Five-seveN is blazingly fast. The shooter in that video is a stone-cold amateur. I have watched a lot of his videos and he is a noob true to form. Imagine what the Five-seveN would do in the hands of the professional shooter someone put a video up of earlier? Reports from Fort Hood from those hearing the gun shots from afar was that someone was using an automatic weapon. Nope, just a crazy psychiatrist with his stock Five-seveN.

 

[Ben Segrest]

To be fair, neither will a .45, 9mm, or 357. Then again, handguns < rifles.

I know, it was a pistol target that I was shooting at. I guess that anecdote wasn't completely germane to the conversation. I mentioned it because of the comparisons to 5.56.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

So can .22lr.

I can say that 5.7 out of a 16" barrel won't dent 3/8" mild steel at 50 yards.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you quite well. Could you repeat that?


From 25 yards. It's not a dent, but will it do?

 

[Ben Segrest]

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you quite well. Could you repeat that?


From 25 yards. It's not a dent, but will it do?

I said that 5.7 out of a 16" barrel won't dent 3/8" mild steel at 50 yards. That's not 3/8" plate and it wasn't shot at 50 yards.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

I agree with this point. The FiveseveN is low recoil and allows for inexperienced shooters to more quickly get back on target. But I also understand that the reason it has lower recoil than 9mm is because it has less power than 9mm. For every action there is an equal and oppposite reaction. Low recoil must equal lower power. You cannot ignore the physics of the situation. When you say lower recoil, you're saying lower power. They are inseperatable.

I will conceed that at the velocities the FiveseveN is generating will more cause the hollow points to expand at a larger percentage of the time. However I'm not convinced that's a good thing. The bullet just doesn't have enough mass to penetrate deeply.

Dave

What!? What!?

Aren't these your words?

Foot pounds is used by gun writers to sell ammunition to people who flunked physics.

Now you are making comments about this arbitrary term you call power? You weren't about to say "stopping power" I pray...

The round I carry is 28gr and rated at 2,600 fps and 405ft-lbs of energy. My gun recoils less than a Glock 17 shooting WWB.

You need to drop the comments about "mass and penetration" my friend. Repeating that phrase over and over doesn't make it true no matter how badly you want it to be.

 

[Skiney]

Wow I appreciate everyones OPINION
I think a healthy discussion on this gun is good.

Again thanks for 100+ post answers
Merry Christmas:}

 

[Sin-ster]

Ummm... okay. So was it .61 then? Nice attempt at saving face though. Unfortunately for you, most of the readers of this thread will understand the main point of the video, and that is that the Five-seveN is blazingly fast. The shooter in that video is a stone-cold amateur. I have watched a lot of his videos and he is a noob true to form. Imagine what the Five-seveN would do in the hands of the professional shooter someone put a video up of earlier? Reports from Fort Hood from those hearing the gun shots from afar was that someone was using an automatic weapon. Nope, just a crazy psychiatrist with his stock Five-seveN.

He got off 4 shots in roughly .60-- try to keep up, hmm? And the first one is almost free, as it begins the timing sequence. So his splits are more like .20, but we'll call them .15 for the sake of discussion. The mild freeze between the first and second shots throws that average-- his last 5 are indeed fast. Sub-.1, no-- but in that realm. Extrapolating those numbers, a safe estimation would be "6" shots in .75-- a wholly unimpressive figure, as they're clearly not aimed and only the blink of an eye faster than his first run.

Keep in mind-- *you* were the one heralding the speed of the pistol with these figures. Not me. "6 accurate shots in .5 seconds"-- hardly.

"A stock Five-seveN" is not what he's shooting. One only needs read the title of the video to figure that part out. And we're using "reports" of what people heard during a shooting as factual claims now? LEO world wide will be thrilled-- they've struggled with problematic witness accounts for decades. You just put some of the best defense attorneys on the planet out of business-- and simultaneously condemned countless innocent people to prison time/death. I met someone who saw Bigfoot once, too-- come to think of it, his argument for the creature's existence sounded a lot like this one...

Save face? Humor. That's typically left up to the weaker end of an argument, just so you know. Furthermore, I'm not the anonymous contributor to this thread, having taken steps at the onset to save face... by never revealing one in the first place. Or maybe you're just a Crusader for a gimmick round, with little else to do with their time but browse the Interwebz and join random forums to preach the gospel. My guess would be that if you're actually carrying one of these weapons around, your time would be better spent practicing-- a lot. Better start saving... Or like all anon-gurus, are you independently wealthy as well as unquestionably genius?

I don't need to imagine what an expert shooter would do with the pistol, or how it would compare to another (more viable) option. It'd take me a lifetime to explain it, and frankly-- it's not worth the effort. We don't have any handy videos or accounts to help correlate this info-- *because no one with the first clue actually chooses to shoot the Five-seveN in anger*. I wish someone would have brought one to the Charity Match yesterday-- I'm sure Blake and Max would have been happy to give us some test data. Alas, another opportunity lost...

Clearly, there's a lot of emotional attachment (coupled with the necessary illogical thinking and bull headed attitude) floating around on your side of the argument. I see a lot of refuted claims being ignored, paper facts that don't correlate with real world experiences, and a bunch of people with the urge to feel self-important. My goal here is to prevent honestly curious people from making a poor decision when they pick out a tool to protect themselves and their loved ones. I'd say you're doing a pretty good job of dismantling the 5.7 as an option on your own-- just needed a little guidance. (Seriously-- you can't believe that coming into a *locally oriented* community forum, filled with members who know each other personally, and spouting a bunch of obscurely referenced BS coupled with hilarious video clips and photos would change anyone's mind... do you??? Who are you really trying to convince about the superiority of your $1k pistol?)

There's not a single serious or qualified shooter on the planet who favors the 5.7 (round or pistol) over the more standard options. Even guys that I can't stand agree on this point. That speaks volumes to anyone who enters into this topic without bias. And believe me when I tell you-- we're all looking for better options when it comes to self defense, ESPECIALLY in terms of a handgun. The thought of a light weight, high capacity, low recoiling round with impressive accuracy and wounding capability, and semi-feasible price point for training purposes certainly gets some attention. But your pet pistol project isn't it. You spent your money, you formed your attachments and chose your personal icon-- a fifth grade mind set about a tool, but common in the relatively ignorant firearms community. Don't expect those of us who know better to coddle you over that decision, or allow you to gather greater numbers to your side for some sense of validation. Ain't happening-- we care about our fellow members around here, just as I'm assuming the other folks on other boards where you've found a similar response feel.

What tickles my fancy the most? Your chosen figurehead to drive the argument home. Some bumbling guy with a YouTube channel, who even you claim is making a sales pitch as a stone-cold amateur and a "noob true to form". Really-- I couldn't make this stuff up, and I'm fairly imaginative. (Awesome videogame reference, BTW. Makes my CoD comment all the more applicable.)

My work... Or, wait... Your work is done here. Back to whatever iWarrior ballistic expert corner you crawled from. (Please? God, please...)

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

Lets look at the shots that only wounded people and see if you like it as much. The only people killed were killed by shots that would have had the same outcome had a .22LR been used. So here are a few of the many people that DIDN'T die...

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/military/article/Fort-Hood-shooting-victims-847227.php

Amber Bahr, 19, of Random Lake, Wis., was shot in the stomach.
Pvt. Najee Hull, 21, of Chicago was shot three times, once in the leg and twice in the back.
Justin Johnson, 21, of Punta Gorda, Fla., was shot in the chest and leg.
Shawn Manning, 33, formerly of Redman, Ore., was shot six times
Sgt. Kimberly Munley, 34, of Killeen is the Fort Hood civilian police officer who was shot multiple times by the suspect.
Sgt. John Pagel, 28, of North Freedom, Wis., who was shot in the arm and chest.
Spc. Matthew Cook, 30, of Binghamton, N.Y., was shot in the abdomen

All those people lived. The case FOR the 5.7 in this unfortunate incident is much weaker than the case AGAINST it.

Wow! Talk about seeing something how you want to see it...

Using a major tragedy like the Fort Hood incident to prove or disprove a weapon platform is poor taste. But since you brought it up...




The following quotes are survivor's testimony in Hasan's article 32 hearing. They are public record and available to those that want to do some research. This hearing was discussed on fnforum.net and I have permission from the poster who compiled some of the relevant quotes to post it on here. I have found no copyright issue to exist with the following testimonies.

http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/10/14/for...al-malik-hasa/

SGT. ALONZO M. LUNSFORD JR. 20 year Army veteran (worked at the Soldier Readiness Center )
"His first targets were members of the unit Hasan was scheduled to deploy with
to Afghanistan. I saw a physicians assistant lift a chair over his head to try and
stop Hasan and the Major turned, fired and brought the man down."

"I was in a crouched position, then prone, searching for a way out, then decided to
make a run for the exit."

When I got up Major Hasan and I made eye contact, he brings his weapon over
me - "He looked at me, I looked at him.

"The laser comes across my line of sight. And I closed my eyes. And I get hit
in the head, I spin around. turned toward the door, took two steps and dropped
and I hit the floor."

"The left side of my face was on the ground and I felt blood pooling around me,
but I could still see Hasan with my right eye. I did a "self assessment, realized I
could move my hands and feet, got up and ran out the doors."

A tough cookie. He lost half of his face.

MICHELLE HARPER (CIVILIAN ARMY EMPLOYEE) LAB TECHNICIAN
"I could hear the pop of his gunfire, and I saw one solder drop. I realized from
the movements of his body that he had been hit three times."

PFC GEORGE STRATTON
"As soon as I turned I saw Maj. Hasan behind me. He was holding an older-fashioned
pistol. As soon as I looked at him, he brought his magazine up and loaded it. He looked
straight down at me, we made eye contact, and he brought his weapon down toward me.
I turned on him, and the weapon fired. It hit me in the left shoulder, my arm went limp."
"I couldn't feel it at all."

"I then hit the ground, and crawled as fast as he could to the door."

Some witnesses testified that Michael Grant Cahill, a civilian physician
assistant, and Capt. John Gaffaney, a psychiatric nurse preparing to
deploy to Iraq, each were fatally shot after picking up chairs to try to
stop Hasan.

CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER II CHRISTOPHER ROYAL
Testifying by telephone from Georgia.

"I went to one corner and looked for a way to pounce on the gunman.
I saw Sgt. Alonzo Lunsford run of the same door I escaped from, and
during that time the shooter opened the door before Sergeant Lunsford
got to the parking lot and he shot Sergeant Lunsford, and he fell face
down into the grass."

I'm going to the building, he comes adjacent to the other side and sees me
again, and he starts firing at me. I ran to a sport utility vehicle and took cover.
Hasan bore down, squeezing off rounds. I felt something jump me in the back,
but I wasn't sure what it was. Then I realized I'd been shot in the back."

He was shot in the back while hiding behind a sport utility vehicle? The gun was designed to penetrate. This example is a case in point.

SPC. MEGAN MARTIN 467th Medical Detachment, the combat stress unit
testifying via a video link from Kandahar, Afghanistan
"A captain from my unit charged the gunman with a folding chair. "But he wasn't
fast enough (fighting tears), and he was shot at close range."

"I focused on a man in fatigues and ripple-soled desert boots moving with a
laser-sighted handgun near an area called station 13. The gunman sprayed
bullets at soldiers in a fanlike motion, before taking aim at individual soldiers.

When I saw a soldier near me was bleeding from the mouth, I hit the ground.
But my eyes stayed riveted on the man with the pistol."

This spraying in a fanlike motion is most likely responsible for a lot of the "limb shots" as he was just trying to hit as many people as possible during this period.

SPC. JAMES ARMSTRONG (Shot twice)

"I was in a large seating area when I heard shooting and turned around to see
soldiers being shot and a chair thrown amid rapid gunfire before the shooter
reloaded.

The scene was "the worst horror movie," with wounded soldiers leaving bloody
handprints on walls as they tried to get up and blood pooled on the floor where
they lay dead."

SPC. LOGAN BURNETT reserve combat stress unit

"I saw Capt. John Gaffane try to attack Hasan with a chair."
"I saw that captain fall. Even so, I decided to try to rush the gunman when I
saw a magazine drop from his pistol. "I stood up and grabbed a folding table.
"I turned to throw it toward the shooter. At that point I was struck in the hip
and fell down."

"I was shot twice more, in the elbow and hand, as I tried to crawl for safety
into a cubicle. I glanced backward when I finally fled the building. "There was
no station 13 at that point. There was nothing but chairs scattered everywhere,
bodies scattered everywhere, blood everywhere."

Another devastating bone shot.

STAFF SGT. JOY CLARK 467th Medical Detachment - combat medic and
occupational therapist

"I was sitting between a veteran psychiatric nurse, Lt. Col. Juanita Warman, and
Capt. Russell Seager, when the gunfire erupted, Warman pulled me down to the
ground, and we lay facing each other on the floor of the center.

"Then I heard her cry. I reached over her side to see if I could feel the wound.
And my hand came back bloody. I heard more shots, saw Seager had stopped
moving, felt for the officers' pulses. There were none. I saw a soldier fall in front
of me "convulsing and coughing up blood," and reached to pull him toward me.
That is when she felt a sting in my left forearm, "and I lost my hold on his jacket."

CAPT. MELISSA KALE 467th Medical Detachment
Testifying via live feed from Afghanistan

(Crying) Sgt. Amy Krueger, had been shot Nov. 5 after a gunman began
spraying bullets in the Army post's Soldier Readiness Processing Center.

"I wanted to get to the east wall. I tried to pull (her) with me. I was unable
to pull her. She didn't move, so I had to leave her there."

MAJOR ERIC TORINA

"I saw Maj. Libardo Caraveo killed while sitting in the waiting area of the
processing center. "I saw Maj. Caraveo was sitting like he was before,
with his legs crossed and his head down, almost like he was sleeping.
But I noticed a bullet hole in his head that was dripping blood."

This conjures up a very chilling image...

SPC. GRANT MOXON
"I was shot in the leg when I saw my (467th) squad leader go down.
I lay across Staff Sgt. Shawn Manning to protect him from getting hit
again. He was bleeding pretty badly. I kind of tried to help him."

Staff Sgt. Manning survived.

SPC. LANCE AVILES

"There was a loud shout, 'Allahu akbar,' and then gunshots.

"I initially thought the shooting was a training exercise."

Aviles testified to a sense of shocked realization that the attack was real.

"I saw friends and fellow soldiers lying on the floor in pools of blood. I saw a soldier
lying on the floor with part of his skull damaged (the GI later died). One soon died
of a bullet wound to the head. I saw Hasan quickly reload a black handgun.
"I considered trying to tackle Hasan after seeing the left side of my battle buddy's
head blown open. I thought I might be able to charge as the shooter reloaded.
But the gunman switched magazines too quickly. I looked up where the shooter
was and I seen the magazine drop and so when the magazine dropped I got up.
I'm trying to take a left turn to go toward the shooter, and when I took that left turn,
he had already reloaded."

"I jumped under a table...

The advantage, and in this case tragedy, of a semi-automatic firearm with large capacity...

SPC. JOSEPH FOSTER (testifying via video feed from Kandahar,
Afghanistan)

"I was texting a friend."

"The shooter spoke with a "strong, stern voice, like a drill instructor."
"I heard the man shout out "Allahu Akbar" -- Arabic for "God is great"
and then felt the shooter's attention turn to him. The weapon came in
my direction, the laser came across my eyes. I fell to the ground and
I felt sharp pain in my hip."

Bone penetration.

TED COUKOULIS (CIVILIAN NURSE)
"When it was apparent that the shooter had left the building, I rushed to begin treating
the wounded. There was so much blood on the floor, and so many shell casings
submerged in it, that I kept slipping and falling. Soldiers were dying all around station 13.
I saw a lieutenant colonel bleeding out so fast that "it was like a soaker hose you would
have in your garden, the amount of blood coming out in a perfect line."

I had to use my sweat shirt to keep wiping my face because so much blood was spurting
as others gave another dying soldier cardiopulmonary resuscitation."

This is a very graphic account of what the SS192 does to tissue in vital areas.

SGT. 1ST CLASS MARIA GUERRA (BUILDING MANAGER)
"The shooter reloaded three times before moving from the front area, "in one
motion, dropping a magazine and up came another one." After the rampage
ended, I locked the doors to make sure the gunman would not come back
inside. I saw the carnage amid the room darkened by thick smoke from the gunfire.
"All I saw was soldiers, just bodies all over the floor - bodies and blood.
No one was moving."

STAFF SGT. MICHAEL "CHAD" DAVIS
"I was shot in the back as I crawled from beneath a desk."

CROSS EXAMINATION
DEFENSE Attorney Lt. Col. Kris Poppe


STAFF SGT. MICHAEL "CHAD" DAVIS
"I didn't see the shooter, the bullet may have pierced the cubicle wall before
hitting me."

I'm wondering if this didn't happen to a lot of people - 5.7mm bullets flying around a room and cutting through cubicle walls as well as people's limbs and penetrating yet more victims. A cubicle wall as well as a human forearm isn't going to slow a 5.7mm bullet very much at all.

MAJOR STEPHEN RICHTER (ARMY MEDICAL CORPS)
testifying via video link from South Korea
"I thought the rapid rate of gunfire meant there was more than one shooter.

A testament to how deadly a weapon, with little recoil, allowing such easy follow up shots, can be. I propose had he used a traditional caliber weapon, that he would have fired much fewer shots in the short time during his murderous rampage. I guess this statement is obvious as there are few if any weapons that can match the FiveseveN's capacity. But, if we temporarily allow equal capacity among all firearm choices, I think the 5-7's recoil would still have allowed more shots fired regardless of the traditional caliber choice. I also think fatigue would have set into his wrist causing his aim to suffer dramatically with larger calibers.

What am I trying to prove with all of this? I guess I am just responding to those who would say that we are lucky that Hasan didn't choose a more "potent" caliber pistol. As sick as it sounds, considering the shooters experience, amount of damage intended, short period of time to do it, I say he picked the "best" weapon he could have, short of a fully-automatic rifle.

OFFICER KIMBERLY MUNLEY
When she first saw the gunman walking with his gun extended, I couldn’t get a clear
shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire.”

The gunman retreated behind a building, she testified, so I went to a corner and got in a prone position to wait for a clear shot. Before long, the gunman came toward me, shooting, so I fired back, aiming for the gunman’s “center mass” in a bid “to stop the threat.”

"I took cover behind a building whose rainspout was peppered by Hasan's gunshots, spraying me with shrapnel. Shards of metal from the gutter hit me in one hand. I could see the gunman round the corner and closing on me.

“I quickly got up, got into a shooting stance,” I fired back, aiming for "center mass,"
I got hit in the thigh first, and I believe that started to take me down. My Beretta 9 mm
handgun had jammed just as the second bullet hit me in the knee and knocked
me to the ground.

He moved away from me and encountered Officer Todd, who ordered Hasan several
times to drop his gun."

Kimberly Munley had surgery for wounds in her hand, knee leg which included her femur which had
shattered into 120 pieces. Again, devastating bone damage.

"I couldn’t get a clear
shot at him because so many soldiers were running behind him. “I did not want any friendly fire."

That's a good thing because she certainly couldn't shoot very well. Her weapon carried 14 rounds (including the round in the chamber) and she missed him with all her shots. She wasn't further from him than 7 yards.

The bad guy had the FiveseveN, the good (girl) had the Beretta 9mm. The bad guy was shot zero times from close range, the good girl was shot 2 or 3 times with injuries to her wrist, knee, and leg. It was also reported that her gun jammed as she was falling to the ground when her leg was shattered. Perhaps if she would have been firing the FiveseveN things would have turned out differently for her? Dare I say this against the "vaunted" 9mm Beretta?

OFFICER MARK TODD

"I arrived at the processing center parking lot shortly after Officer Munley.
As I ran up a small rise, following my partner, I could hear so much gunfire
echoing around the four buildings that it sounded like “thousands of rounds going off.”

"I too was directed to the gunman by soldiers."

When I spotted the gunman, I shouted repeated commands to surrender, but the
gunman opened fire. The gunman retreated around a corner of the building,
and I then heard more volleys that sounded like they were coming from different
weapons.

"I followed and soon saw the gunman standing by a telephone pole."

20 feet away from the downed and wounded Officer Munley, trying to crawl
for her weapon, Officer Mark Todd confronts the gunman.

I challenged him — 'Halt! Military police! Drop your weapon

At that moment, I saw the gunman's red targeting laser fixed on me.
The gunman got off several shots.

I returned fire five times from my Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol.

"I seen him wince a couple times. He collapsed and slid down against
a telephone pole. "I ran up, rushed him. I kicked the weapon
away, flipped him over to handcuff him and placed him in hand irons."

I began emergency medical treatment. I started checking his vitals to try to
save his life.

Emergency rescue crews then took over, and I left the gunman to help
wounded soldiers. But fire, I recovered a semiautomatic pistol, a revolver
and several magazines loaded with rounds.

When I reached into Hasan’s pants pockets, I found he still had an arsenal,
loaded magazines for his Herstal semiautomatic and an unused revolver
along with a cellphone."

The revolver apparently was not fired during the rampage.
Officer Todd, the one that hit Hasan in the CNS and crippled him, said he shot at Hasan under fire but there are conflicting accounts of what really happened. In the following article, an eye witness stated that Todd caught up with Hasan after "rounding a building" and shot him while Hasan was reloading his FiveseveN. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/us...pagewanted=all It could very well be that Hasan was taken out by a shot to the back.

The issue of who took out Hasan was also controversial as all "official accounts" during the first few days had Munley taking Hasan out. Later we learn that she missed him completely. I'm thinking there was some manufacturing of the hero to make things look as good as possible for whatever reason. The bad guy was taken down, that is all that mattered.

FREDERICK BRANNON (Former Salesman at the Guns Galore in Killeen, Tx)
"Nidal Hasan walked into the area's largest gun store, Guns Galore. He drew
attention by asking which handgun in the store was "the most high-tech."
The manager, after a little head scratching, came up with the FN 5.7 pistol."
Hasan left that day, saying that he had to look up the weapon. The next day,
Aug. 1, 2009, he bought the gun, an expensive laser sight, several magazine
extenders and boxes of the armor-piercing ammo. That, too, was odd because
Hasan took out a cell phone and made a video of the manager's demonstration
of how to load the new pistol, remove its magazine and break it down for cleaning.

"I'd never seen any other customer make such a video. Hasan said that "he wanted
to review it later."

"Hasan was told that the SS192 cartridges were becoming less available and that
once the store exhausted its supply, Hasan would have to buy a less penetrating
version."

"Hasan reappeared every week or two to buy more magazines, magazine extenders
and four or five boxes of ammo – usually the penetrating 55192 rounds and extra
magazines for the gun.

"When I asked Hasan why he was buying so many magazines, Hasan told him he
didn't like spending time loading magazines at the shooting range and preferred to
have a large supply."

"Hasan bought a top-end green laser sight for daytime shooting."

SPC WILLIAM GILBERT
"I was browsing at the store and I was asked to tell Hasan about the
weapon, because I own a Herstal FN 5.7. I "tried to kind of feel [Hasan]
out" about what he would do with a handgun. Hasan was vague, saying
that he wanted something high-tech with the biggest magazine possible."
"He did not know what he was looking for. He did not know about handguns."

"Based on Hasan's requirements — he wanted something technologically
advanced and with a large magazine capacity — I advised Hasan to buy
the FN 5-7, which uses magazines that can be extended to hold 30 rounds.
It's extremely lightweight and very, very, very accurate. It's easy to fire and
has minimal recoil."

"I own the same weapon and am a gun aficionado."

"I explained that the FN had a 20-round magazine capable of being fitted
with extenders to hold 30 bullets. The gun was light and "very, very easy
to fire with one hand, like shooting a .22." I explained that one of the
weapon's three types of ammunition, the 55192 round, had such penetrating
capabilities that authorities ordered it off the market after existing stocks were
sold. I told Hasan that the round was thought to be able to penetrate Kevlar
armor and expand on hitting flesh, "basically liquefying anything ... in that area."

"I spent nearly an hour talking to Hasan."

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

He got off 4 shots in roughly .60-- try to keep up, hmm? And the first one is almost free, as it begins the timing sequence. So his splits are more like .20, but we'll call them .15 for the sake of discussion. The mild freeze between the first and second shots throws that average-- his last 5 are indeed fast. Sub-.1, no-- but in that realm. Extrapolating those numbers, a safe estimation would be "6" shots in .75-- a wholly unimpressive figure, as they're clearly not aimed and only the blink of an eye faster than his first run.

Keep in mind-- *you* were the one heralding the speed of the pistol with these figures. Not me. "6 accurate shots in .5 seconds"-- hardly.

"A stock Five-seveN" is not what he's shooting. One only needs read the title of the video to figure that part out. And we're using "reports" of what people heard during a shooting as factual claims now? LEO world wide will be thrilled-- they've struggled with problematic witness accounts for decades. You just put some of the best defense attorneys on the planet out of business-- and simultaneously condemned countless innocent people to prison time/death. I met someone who saw Bigfoot once, too-- come to think of it, his argument for the creature's existence sounded a lot like this one...

Save face? Humor. That's typically left up to the weaker end of an argument, just so you know. Furthermore, I'm not the anonymous contributor to this thread, having taken steps at the onset to save face... by never revealing one in the first place. Or maybe you're just a Crusader for a gimmick round, with little else to do with their time but browse the Interwebz and join random forums to preach the gospel. My guess would be that if you're actually carrying one of these weapons around, your time would be better spent practicing-- a lot. Better start saving... Or like all anon-gurus, are you independently wealthy as well as unquestionably genius?

I don't need to imagine what an expert shooter would do with the pistol, or how it would compare to another (more viable) option. It'd take me a lifetime to explain it, and frankly-- it's not worth the effort. We don't have any handy videos or accounts to help correlate this info-- *because no one with the first clue actually chooses to shoot the Five-seveN in anger*. I wish someone would have brought one to the Charity Match yesterday-- I'm sure Blake and Max would have been happy to give us some test data. Alas, another opportunity lost...

Clearly, there's a lot of emotional attachment (coupled with the necessary illogical thinking and bull headed attitude) floating around on your side of the argument. I see a lot of refuted claims being ignored, paper facts that don't correlate with real world experiences, and a bunch of people with the urge to feel self-important. My goal here is to prevent honestly curious people from making a poor decision when they pick out a tool to protect themselves and their loved ones. I'd say you're doing a pretty good job of dismantling the 5.7 as an option on your own-- just needed a little guidance. (Seriously-- you can't believe that coming into a *locally oriented* community forum, filled with members who know each other personally, and spouting a bunch of obscurely referenced BS coupled with hilarious video clips and photos would change anyone's mind... do you??? Who are you really trying to convince about the superiority of your $1k pistol?)

There's not a single serious or qualified shooter on the planet who favors the 5.7 (round or pistol) over the more standard options. Even guys that I can't stand agree on this point. That speaks volumes to anyone who enters into this topic without bias. And believe me when I tell you-- we're all looking for better options when it comes to self defense, ESPECIALLY in terms of a handgun. The thought of a light weight, high capacity, low recoiling round with impressive accuracy and wounding capability, and semi-feasible price point for training purposes certainly gets some attention. But your pet pistol project isn't it. You spent your money, you formed your attachments and chose your personal icon-- a fifth grade mind set about a tool, but common in the relatively ignorant firearms community. Don't expect those of us who know better to coddle you over that decision, or allow you to gather greater numbers to your side for some sense of validation. Ain't happening-- we care about our fellow members around here, just as I'm assuming the other folks on other boards where you've found a similar response feel.

What tickles my fancy the most? Your chosen figurehead to drive the argument home. Some bumbling guy with a YouTube channel, who even you claim is making a sales pitch as a stone-cold amateur and a "noob true to form". Really-- I couldn't make this stuff up, and I'm fairly imaginative. (Awesome videogame reference, BTW. Makes my CoD comment all the more applicable.)

My work... Or, wait... Your work is done here. Back to whatever iWarrior ballistic expert corner you crawled from. (Please? God, please...)

Don't you just love people that make comments like "it's not worth the effort", or "I don't have the time", and then go on to write a 1,000 word manifesto/rant?

I only have one thing to say in response to your formidable effort in obfuscating the real point of the thread...



Cool Story Bro!

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

There is a real productive point to these highly charged 5.7 threads that pop up from time to time across the web. Lots of information gets passed around and in the end a couple more people join the 5.7 club. It happens every time. There will always be the trolls and the ardent 5.7 haters, but their contributions are what allow such a strong argument to be made fore the 5.7. If it wasn't for the haters, a 5.7 thread would go like this..

OP: Hey guys, I'm thinking about buying a Five-seveN.

1st reply: Is that the cop killer gun?

OP: I think so.

2nd reply: Cool.

/endthread


So instead, when somebody jumps in and makes the age-old statement, "The Five-seveN is nothing but an overhyped 22 mag"; guys like me can pull it up on Google search, jointhe forum, and educate while having a lot of fun.


In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, with 40-grain bullets, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 700 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

When 30-grain bullets are compared pistol-to-pistol, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 1000 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, the 5.7x28mm EA loads produce about three times the muzzle energy of the .22 Magnum.

http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec-PMR30-2.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm


See how fun and easy that was?



You guys wouldn't believe how much fun it is arguing about the Five-seveN. It's an easy win. Anybody that knows anything about handguns knows it's all about shot placement. The second somebody starts to compare calibers it all turns to folly and their credibility goes out the window. The Five-seveN isn't THE choice for a self-defense handgun, it is A choice; a very good choice I would like to think, but a choice nonetheless.