FN FiveSeven USG 5.7X28 Your Comments

[goteron]

It looks like most of those pictures are 10+ years old. And I imagine some are staged for / by FN. pull the true exif and find some dates. The gun probably does make some sense for some units, like the secret service. But I'm not them, nor am I filling the same role.

Let's compare 5.7 to 300BLK. Both were "new" rounds made to fill a niche, one was not successfull, the other will likely be. Both were "created" by large companies. 5.7 is much like 6.8 in my mind. Neat, but the practical purpose cannot support it, whereas 300BLK makes sense. It offers a new envelope.

All of these 5.7 posts are canned. Just make a 5.7 forum where everyone can gather and talk about how awesome it is, like the keltec forums, scar, ACR, M&P, etc.

Until I see unbiased tests by a lab, I have to believe what I hear from people I trust, mimic what the pros use (why aren't the top Competition shooters using 5.7, no recoil and high capacity are what they want) and practice.

There may be other countries using it, maybe even some US entities, but certainly not more than the AR /5.56. I don't know of any agency that issues a FS pistol, though I haven't looked.

 

[Sin-ster]

Only four shots in 0.6 seconds? Oh, the horror!

News flash: you're still splitting hairs. Try to stay relevant.

It's not that fast; it's not verifiably accurate. You... Well, one of you... said that was proof of the gun's superiority-- now you wanna ignore actual, quantifiable facts about the pistol's performance in that video. Shocker!

Furthermore, pistols chambered in 9mm, .40 and .45 can do the same thing.

"Nuh, uh! Not as fast!" Based on what-- conjecture, or proof?
What proof-- oh, from a timer. I see.
So you're familiar with timed splits, then. Okay. And .25 seconds for *2 shots* is splitting hairs in a discussion about speed and accuracy. Gotcha.

Try: reliable, verifiable information from shootings and other real world use.

You're the one spouting irrelevant conjecture about a gun you don't even own or shoot. Your knowledge base on the subject is grounded in internet rumor.

And just how much verifiable information have you provided? How much real world use have YOU got with the pistol? I already said I've shot one-- several times, at speed, looking *specifically* at it's performance in regards to speed and accuracy. I even shot it suppressed for ~50 rounds.

Oh, right-- your catch-all response to any thoughtful opposition is all you've got, even when it doesn't apply.

At the same time...

How can you be so blatantly hypocritical-- in your demands and accusations?

Can you show me a single instance in this thread where I could have possibly used internet conjecture? Because I've stuck to picking apart the illogical elements of the argument, and the ridiculously poor structure it has taken.

But isn't "hits on target" the only thing that matters here? (Your fellow fanatic posted that one.)

Now that *is* something I contend with, because I *do* have personal experience with what that takes to accomplish-- at speed, under stress, on multiple targets, from several different holsters and starting positions, in less-than-ideal shooting positions, with repeatable consistency and on demand in the blink of an eye. And the SINGLE bit of evidence either of you have offered in this regard... is a YouTube video of some half-tard slapping at a modified trigger, and making numerical claims that are quite obviously false. Seriously?

Like Nomad, I'm not having fun anymore. Honestly, if people can't see through the agenda-driven, "I need validation", convoluted array of "facts" and hypocrisy you two have presented here... If they take your "information" at face value, believe that a "noob friendly pistol" and magical EA ammo are a substitute for training/practice and a proven manstopper, run out and buy a FsN and then find themselves in a violent encounter...

... they deserve what they get, Natural Selection will have taken place, and the world will be better off without them. Anyone who does not find countless red flags raised at every turn in this thread DEFINITELY belong in your camp, and certainly aren't welcome in mine.

In final closing, because I don't think I'll ever stop laughing at this major element of the argument:

"An amateur can take one out of the box and deliver 6 accurate shots in .5 seconds!"

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

It looks like most of those pictures are 10+ years old. And I imagine some are staged for / by FN. pull the true exif and find some dates. The gun probably does make some sense for some units, like the secret service. But I'm not them, nor am I filling the same role.

Let's compare 5.7 to 300BLK. Both were "new" rounds made to fill a niche, one was not successfull, the other will likely be. Both were "created" by large companies. 5.7 is much like 6.8 in my mind. Neat, but the practical purpose cannot support it, whereas 300BLK makes sense. It offers a new envelope.

All of these 5.7 posts are canned. Just make a 5.7 forum where everyone can gather and talk about how awesome it is, like the keltec forums, scar, ACR, M&P, etc.

Until I see unbiased tests by a lab, I have to believe what I hear from people I trust, mimic what the pros use (why aren't the top Competition shooters using 5.7, no recoil and high capacity are what they want) and practice.

There may be other countries using it, maybe even some US entities, but certainly not more than the AR /5.56. I don't know of any agency that issues a FS pistol, though I haven't looked.

I can find you tons of fairly recent pictures of USSS carrying P90s but I don't really want to at this point. I think I've provided enough data for those who are interested in the platform to read all they need to.

I fixed the link to the thread that has unbiased tests on the 5.7 that I think will be to your liking. We have several 5.7 forums where the platform is actively discussed. I just joined this one because it looked like an easy job (and it was) to fix a bit of the misinformation that was being tossed about. Aren't you thankful that real Five-seveN owners joined your local forum to offer some insight on the platform instead of just people with hearsay or a resident know-it-all that shot a handful of rounds through it? I have already received thank you PMs from people that are glad a Five-seveN enthusiast showed up to keep things honest and balanced.

As far as why the Five-seveN isn't being used by competition shooters, it's because it is illegal. There is a minimum caliber size I believe to compete in the top leagues. It's a good thing because if they did allow the Five-seveN and didn't make a special class all for itself, it would absolutely clean up. When I go to my local IDPA and shoot unofficially, people with 9mm's and .45's just shake their head. The Five-seveN in the hands of a pro would be like cheating. I do believe there is a national Leo shooting league that allows the 5.7 for competition since some departments issue it.

Also, the 5.56x45 should not be compared to the 5.7x28.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

I fixed the broken link in the original post but thought I should repost the link here so those that want to read through it can do so easily. The test video on page 22 is the most complete and unbiased and up-to-date 5.7x28mm test available. It was attended and performed by 5.7 enthusiasts as well as 5.7 detractors. In fact one of them talks very similarly to the the Sinner character but changed his tune after the test.

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=78715

Again, I would recommend that those with time read through the thread if they can. It really helps to define the test and give some background info on the participants as well as their attitudes before and after the test. Fans of the platform should be very entertained while guys like Sinner will be furiously looking for any way he can discredit it. I welcome his efforts.

 

[dwr461]

Blah, blah, blah. Do you even know where the organs are located in a human body? Don't let the FBI's arbitrary penetration depth minimums (in ballistic gelatin) confuse you with reality. If you don't hit somebody in the arm or through their arse first, you are going to kill them with roughly 6 inches of penetration to the chest. This is why itty bitty rounds like the 22LR have killed so many people. It doesn't take much. That being said, 12 inches is a nice round number and I guess is the maximum you would want a pistol round to penetrate before you start to have liability issues like over-penetration. There are lots of 5.7mm rounds that satisfy the "FBI minimums" so it's all a moot point anyway.

I've been a paramedic for nearly 20 years. The last 14 years in a municipal department that responds to 911 only. We also happen to have one of the highest violent crime rates in the country. I suspect I know a great more than you about what happens when bullets meet the body. I certainly know a great deal about human A&P. Yes I've seen people dropped hammer dead from 25 acp or shot in the head will 38 special and be OK or shot 14 times with 40 S&W PD issue and not die. If seen fat guys shot angled to the shooter where the round had to penetrate the arm, break the radius, and break a rib before hitting anything vital. Sixteen inches in ballistic gel that doesn't have bones seems a little on the light side for me. I also have nearly 200 college hours with the majority being in actual science classes.

As far as the video of the 5.7 round penetrating the hood and then hitting the meat. 1) I didn't see the meat prior to being placed behind the hood. 2) They didn't try the same trick with other handguns. I'm curious to see the results.

Since you brought it up, other than being able to work a search engine what makes your opinion more qualified than anyone elses?

Dave

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

You... Well, one of you... said that was proof of the gun's superiority

Boy, I sure hope I didn't say that. I did a lot of typing today and could have made an honest mistake. I do remember specifically saying that there are plenty of options for a self-defensive pistol and the Five-seveN is just one of many options. I also said that the Five-seveN is the easiest pistol of all the common calibers to shoot fast and accurately at the same time. It is much easier than 9mm and much much easier than .40 and .45. In fact, the single most common thing that first time shooters say after growing up on the traditional, primitive calibers is that they can't believe how easy it is to put multiple rounds on target. That is a huge advantage in my opinion but certainly doesn't invalidate those that have trained for years on other calibers.

Now that *is* something I contend with, because I *do* have personal experience with what that takes to accomplish-- at speed, under stress, on multiple targets, from several different holsters and starting positions, in less-than-ideal shooting positions, with repeatable consistency and on demand in the blink of an eye. And the SINGLE bit of evidence either of you have offered in this regard... is a YouTube video of some half-tard slapping at a modified trigger, and making numerical claims that are quite obviously false. Seriously?

It would be safe to say that you are a kind of gun nerd right? You are the guy that runs around every weekend rolling around in the dirt modifying your pistol until it doesn't look like a pistol anymore in hopes of shaving a 1/10 of a second off your time. Am I correct?

Why in the world are you touting your experience and trying to parlay that into some relativity to the typical gun owner? Hell even the typical police officer? Do you think that I doubt that you are really fast with your 9/45 in competition? Do you think I am in this thread trying to convince you to lobby your local chapter to accept the Five-seveN in tournaments? The point of the Five-seveN is that it makes amateurs better shooters due to lower recoil and flatter trajectories while maintaining acceptable tissue damage and exceptional hard barrier penetration characteristics. That has been my theme. What it has to do with your ability to draw from different holsters or demonstrate "blink of an eye" on demand consistency has no relevance. That being said, if you spent the same amount of time practicing with the Five-seveN as you do with your common caliber you would be a superstar. Of course you would also be cheating. The good news is, we as amateurs get to cheat and that's what it feels like to shoot the Five-seveN for the first time... cheating.

Like Nomad, I'm not having fun anymore. Honestly, if people can't see through the agenda-driven, "I need validation", convoluted array of "facts" and hypocrisy you two have presented here... If they take your "information" at face value, believe that a "noob friendly pistol" and magical EA ammo are a substitute for training/practice and a proven manstopper, run out and buy a FsN and then find themselves in a violent encounter...

... they deserve what they get, Natural Selection will have taken place, and the world will be better off without them. Anyone who does not find countless red flags raised at every turn in this thread DEFINITELY belong in your camp, and certainly aren't welcome in mine.

In final closing, because I don't think I'll ever stop laughing at this major element of the argument:

"An amateur can take one out of the box and deliver 6 accurate shots in .5 seconds!"

Perhaps those not finding this thread "fun" anymore might be sensing the negative turn it has taken since you started posting more. When the array of facts supporting the Five-seveN as a legitimate self-defensive choice are laid out in the overwhelming fashion as they have been laid out in here, it tends to madden the diehard haters. Sinter, I hope this doesn't come as a surprise, but you aren't the first hater to blow a gasket.

I really don't know where I said that the Five-seveN and EA ammo is a substitute for practice. In fact I'm quite sure I never said that. Everybody should become familiar with their chosen weapon for self-defense and practice as much as they can. It's just that the Five-seveN will allow MUCH greater accuracy and MUCH faster follow up shots with less practice/skill than is required by the traditional/more primitive calibers. That is a fact my friend.

You didn't just say "Manstopper" without making a joke did you? You just dropped a couple points on the credibility scale in my book friend. Also, predicting doom and disaster to anyone finding themselves in a threating situation with "only" a Five-seveN in their hand is not only ignorant but quite irresponsible. There are MANY people that would benefit from a Five-seveN due to its light weight, low recoil, and barrier penetrating characteristics. And didn't we already clear up that shot placement is the #1 factor in a successful threat stoppage with caliber a VERY distant #2? If you didn't read the quote I already provided from one of the leading forensic pathologists in the nation you really should. It makes your comment about "proven manstoppers" seem a little silly with all your determined attempts at coming off as the resident expert. Perhaps your "stream of consciousness" got a little stagnant?

Don't be a hater. Just read with an open mind. Peace.

 

[Ben Segrest]

Perhaps those not finding this thread "fun" anymore might be sensing the negative turn it has taken since you started posting more.

No, it's because you are really annoying.

 

[762NATO]

If you want something like this, get one of those Kel-tec PMR 30s that fire the .22WMR. I imagine they are far cheaper, and hold more rounds default. I have heard of some reliability issues, so buyer beware.

 

[762NATO]

Maybe we should get a mod to close the thread if this is getting to the level of insulation and ceases to be "fun".

 

[Sin-ster]

What effort? As usual, the information presented discredits itself.

The calibration round fired was only ~35 FPS (roughly 6% more than the called for velocity) too fast, but penetrated ~.5" too far into the gel (roughly 14% more than what's called for). The temperature and consistency of the gel is also questionable, as referenced by one of the testers in this thread: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75048

The reason (as loosely quoted from the video and some of the posts) that some of you geniuses were surprised by the performance of the FN SS197 round is that the test protocols were borked from the start. Why bother messing with it on your own, when Dr. Roberts was very much willing to accomodate you if he simply received some ammo and weapons to test with?

I found that thread before you fixed your link, but had not made it to page 22 to find the video-- and wasn't sure the test I was looking for was housed there. As usual, the organization of your material is shoddy. Here's the link you should have given, as it's a dedicated and much more easily navigated thread: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=82043&p=1814070#p1814070

Still, I urge everyone to read the first couple of pages of the original thread, as well as some of the comments on the pages before and after 22. It's pretty clear that A) the majority of the contributors are 5.7 fans, B) the "detractors" are pretty well shunned and insulted-- especially if they're "fanatics of the established FBI test protocols" , and 3) Elite Ammunition has a pretty shady history, between the Ryan guy and the raid that took place shortly after the test. Granted, none of these 3 aspects disqualify any of the information-- that's left for the calibration. It does however provide quite a context for this "unbiased scientific test" of wonder-ammo.

And yeah, I lied about being done with the thread-- but I really wanted to see that test. Not to nit pick faults-- although they were not difficult to find. I truly and honestly wish there was a pistol that performs as described, and I would be the first to consider converting to it (provided the aggravation of ammo cost, accessories, replacing the factory sights, etc. were not too great). I seriously urge you guys to test again, more carefully and with even better documentation-- or just do the smart and simple thing and send the ammo in to a professional, who is willing to hook you up for free. At the very least, fire some of the premium stuff in 9mm or .40 or .45 for comparison. If the figures you get for the well-tested stuff varies from the expert tests, you'll know something was wrong. If it matches-- just more strength for your case.

As many of the real members of this forum have heard in the past, my take on choosing a pistol and caliber is to find something with adequate penetration that you can shoot accurately and quickly, and go from there. I tend to favor bigger holes over slightly faster follow ups, as I've done enough work on the timer to know that the difference in splits between 230 grain .45 +p ammo and hand loaded competition 9mm (in a carry weapon and fully tuned game gun respectively) are negligible, but the permanent (and only truly important) wound channels are notably bigger with the larger caliber. If however some of these rounds can achieve what's claimed, I'd definitely have to re-evaluate the FsN as an option and see just how this balance stacked up-- and whether or not it was worth my switching over. Chances are that without more real world data (on the effectiveness of this wonder ammo, and the reliability/durability of the pistol itself) I would stick with what I know anyway-- but I'd certainly change my tune as to the viability of the round itself.

There's one unbiased side to this "debate", and one side that's simply skeptical. I find it hard to believe that if these facts are so plentiful and verifiable, the only test of the only (allegedly) adequate ammo is questionable and so damn difficult to find. Doesn't it behoove EA to fund some testing of their own? Or just *send it to Roberts for testing*?

Okay, now really-- I've seen what I need to see. I am done-- honest injun!

 

[JWG223]

Now you're starting to get it. But even if it does expand, the permanent wound channel observed in autopsy is indistinguishable from an unexpanded hollowpoint. The bottom line is this, when dealing with pistol calibers, shot placement is key. As long as you can reach the vital organs which are located 5-7 inches into an adult man's chest, you are going to incapacitate him just as quickly with a 5.7 as you are with a .45.
Ideally, yes. However, check this out. I took this picture of myself a while back to illustrate the point that an unobstructed shot against someone's thoracic cavity may not be as simple as it seems. That 5.7x28 may very well fail while the .45 punches on through the forearm without losing a loto f energy/fragmenting/etc. and gets it done.




That's a good point. FN's weakest factory round that they sell produces around 275 ft-lbs of energy yet does horrible things to 200 lb deer and hogs. When you cut them open, you would have thought they were hit with a much more "powerful" round. That reminds me of this guy on another forum (I have full documentation of the kill and photos if you like) that shot a 220lb hog with his Five-seveN pistol and SS197 (the weakest factory) ammo from around 25 yards. He hit it in the nugget and it was a one shot stop. When he cut it open and revealed a golf ball sized cavity behind this hog's rather thick skull, his buddy (who was a 5.7 detractor) said and I quote, "HOLY SH**!!!, that lil bullet did that!!!?"
When even crappy bullets hit bone, the show can be epic, especially if they are yawed 90*
P.S. Who uses a 23 grain bullet? There is no such thing in 5.7x28mm...




Blah, blah, blah. Do you even know where the organs are located in a human body? Yes, I do. Don't let the FBI's arbitrary penetration depth minimums (in ballistic gelatin) confuse you with reality. If you don't hit somebody in the arm or through their arse first, you are going to kill them with roughly 6 inches of penetration to the chest. The problem is, with the 5.7 those rounds may not accurately track after hitting that arm, or they may yaw 90* and penetration goes to hell. Notice against my picture. The angle of my radius,humerus, and ulnar bones could easily deflect most rounds to one degree or another. This is why itty bitty rounds like the 22LR have killed so many people. It doesn't take much. That being said, 12 inches is a nice round number and I guess is the maximum you would want a pistol round to penetrate before you start to have liability issues like over-penetration. No, I disagree. Take the 357SIG Gold-Dot for example. It penetrates 14-17" in bare gel and clothed gel. Yet most of the shootings involving it that I researched showed projectiles remaining either in the torso, or the clothing. How can this be? Not everything in the body is equal to gel. The skin on the back, for example, is the equivalent of 4" of gel. Ribs and whatnot also have different values. Gel is a good tool for comparing rounds to one another, and for making sure they aren't total "flops", but 12" in gel does NOT! equal 12" in a person. 12" in gel is the MINIMUM for a reason even though the average torso is much thinner.There are lots of 5.7mm rounds that satisfy the "FBI minimums" Yes, same for the .22LR. I am not going to adopt it for carry, though. so it's all a moot point anyway.

Red, and, picture:

Notice how your target is much smaller now that I am holding a shotgun (the long stock which keeps me from better tucking in, but does cause me to "blade" somewhat, causing more issue for hitting the correct organs. In this shot, you would likely only hit the right lung, the heart and ascending aorta would likely not be hit. but that's beside the point)? A pistol fully extended also does the same thing/similar. Now, what if I were behind cover/concealment, such as a book-case, or leaning out from behind a wall something? Using cover would further exacerbate your situation.

 

[JWG223]

There is a real productive point to these highly charged 5.7 threads that pop up from time to time across the web. Lots of information gets passed around and in the end a couple more people join the 5.7 club. It happens every time. There will always be the trolls and the ardent 5.7 haters, but their contributions are what allow such a strong argument to be made fore the 5.7. If it wasn't for the haters, a 5.7 thread would go like this..

OP: Hey guys, I'm thinking about buying a Five-seveN.

1st reply: Is that the cop killer gun?

OP: I think so.

2nd reply: Cool.

/endthread


So instead, when somebody jumps in and makes the age-old statement, "The Five-seveN is nothing but an overhyped 22 mag"; guys like me can pull it up on Google search, jointhe forum, and educate while having a lot of fun.


In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, with 40-grain bullets, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 700 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

When 30-grain bullets are compared pistol-to-pistol, the 5.7x28mm EA loads achieve a muzzle velocity roughly 1000 ft/s faster than the .22 Magnum.

In a pistol-to-pistol comparison, the 5.7x28mm EA loads produce about three times the muzzle energy of the .22 Magnum.

http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec-PMR30-2.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm


See how fun and easy that was?



You guys wouldn't believe how much fun it is arguing about the Five-seveN. It's an easy win. Anybody that knows anything about handguns knows it's all about shot placement. The second somebody starts to compare calibers it all turns to folly and their credibility goes out the window. The Five-seveN isn't THE choice for a self-defense handgun, it is A choice; a very good choice I would like to think, but a choice nonetheless.

I agree with this, in some aspects.

Shot-placement is king. I agree.
Caliber comparison between 9mm, .40, .45, 357SIG, etc. is a masturbatory argument. However, comparing .380 to .40 is not. The .40 clearly is the better round. Why? The .380 lacks sufficient mass and velocity to penetrate as necessary in less than ideal conditions.

This is where the 5.7x28 suffers. Windshields, arms, etc. all wreak havoc on the light and often-times frangible projectiles. THAT is my problem with the 5.7x28. It will handily get the job done on an unobstructed cranial or thoracic cavity shot. However, put anything in its way, arm, etc. and it will fail.

Further, I did not bring up Fort Hood. Your crony started that, although I did rebut against it using other aspects of it. The re-occurring theme there is that shots to bone caused devastating wounds (not a big surprise), otherwise 3-6 shots were usually required and then the people often ran away if the CNS or great vessels were not hit.

 

[Nomad.2nd]

No, it's because you are really annoying.

Yes

 

[JWG223]

Ok, it isn't fun to read this anymore... ya'll have at it.

Some I disagree with, some I don't care about, but I DO want to put out there:

Cars ARE NOT COVER...

For ANYTHING!

And should not be treated as such.

Agree 100%. I will say though, on a different note slightly, metal car-doors are pretty good at stopping buckshot until you get to 00 at 1300fps or greater, or 000 buck. #4 buck is stopped at point-blank in my testing, but this is all relative. I have also had M855 fragment violently on the outer skin of the door, and then further on the inner skin, greatly reducing efficacy I would imagine. In short, fragmenting rounds suck against cars. Many cops have died because M193 and Winchester BST's don't do as much through a windshield as they had hoped.

 

[Sin-ster]

Boy, I sure hope I didn't say that. I did a lot of typing today and could have made an honest mistake. I do remember specifically saying that there are plenty of options for a self-defensive pistol and the Five-seveN is just one of many options. I also said that the Five-seveN is the easiest pistol of all the common calibers to shoot fast and accurately at the same time. It is much easier than 9mm and much much easier than .40 and .45. In fact, the single most common thing that first time shooters say after growing up on the traditional, primitive calibers is that they can't believe how easy it is to put multiple rounds on target. That is a huge advantage in my opinion but certainly doesn't invalidate those that have trained for years on other calibers.

Touche. You did not say that, although it's easy draw that conclusion based on the tone and what not of the posts. But fair enough. And indeed, you've sprinkled in some comments to the "other options" effect as well.

It would be safe to say that you are a kind of gun nerd right? You are the guy that runs around every weekend rolling around in the dirt modifying your pistol until it doesn't look like a pistol anymore in hopes of shaving a 1/10 of a second off your time. Am I correct?

Boy, you got me pinned. That describes me to the letter. The entire board now knows the evil truth-- despite the fact that many of them spend time around me every weekend. And here I thought a "gun nerd" would be someone with experience limited to lab testing and "on paper" data-- typically performed by someone else and only referenced by said nerd. But I guess that describes you and not me, eh?

Why in the world are you touting your experience and trying to parlay that into some relativity to the typical gun owner? Hell even the typical police officer? Do you think that I doubt that you are really fast with your 9/45 in competition? Do you think I am in this thread trying to convince you to lobby your local chapter to accept the Five-seveN in tournaments? The point of the Five-seveN is that it makes amateurs better shooters due to lower recoil and flatter trajectories while maintaining acceptable tissue damage and exceptional hard barrier penetration characteristics. That has been my theme. What it has to do with your ability to draw from different holsters or demonstrate "blink of an eye" on demand consistency has no relevance. That being said, if you spent the same amount of time practicing with the Five-seveN as you do with your common caliber you would be a superstar. Of course you would also be cheating. The good news is, we as amateurs get to cheat and that's what it feels like to shoot the Five-seveN for the first time... cheating.

Because that's the crux of the argument. And a substitute for training is EXACTLY what you're trying to provide, if the gun is some magic elixir for amateurs that doesn't apply so much for experienced shooters. "Use this gun-- it's cheating and you'll be as fast as that guy over there who has been working at it for years!" Furthermore, this is the single most important aspect of your claims-- and the one for which you've provided the least amount of "evidence", questionable or otherwise. The gun is easier for an amateur to shoot quickly an accurately-- so prove it. It makes a lot of sense... on paper... but let's see it at work!

If the round performs as advertised and the claims are accurate, this is a wonderful thing! And you're right-- with as much practice as they'd put in on a traditional caliber, an experienced shooter could be a beast with the FsN.

But if the round does NOT perform as advertised, you may have just gotten some poor sucker killed. If it doesn't perform as well and is NOT notably faster, you just got them killed without enjoying the advantages the platform offers them and their amateur skill sets.

Just to clarify a couple of things-- I don't hate the 5.7 round or the pistol. I've got no reason to hate it, nothing at stake. I don't mind being proven wrong about it, either-- it might save my life some day. Heck, I don't even hate you-- I keep responding because I feel like your posts deserve at least some answer; it would be rude to shut down completely, when you post a reply as I'm *trying* to get out of this nightmare thread.

The thread isn't fun because there's no point to it. Despite what you think, you haven't convinced anyone (amateur or otherwise) around here of anything. Even if you had an unquestionable set of proofs, your delivery alone would put off a lot of receptive people-- fanatical and arrogant attachment tend to do that. The handful of valid counter points that have been offered here, you have either overlooked, misconstrued, or attempted to discredit in some insulting fashion or another. That doesn't enamor anyone, unbiased or otherwise.

But in my particular case, it's not fun because there's no argument to be had-- and I like to argue. You say one thing, I spend time analyzing it and offering contentions-- you call me a gun nerd, a "timer king", an internet blatherer and then go on about your business. You say unsubstantiated internet claims are irrelevant, procede to make several of your own:

It's just that the Five-seveN will allow MUCH greater accuracy and MUCH faster follow up shots with less practice/skill than is required by the traditional/more primitive calibers. That is a fact my friend.

And then don't qualify or even address my contention to them. You also have a tough time understanding meaning, even when it's pretty well stipulated-- and then go off on a tangent about your faulty interpretation:

And didn't we already clear up that shot placement is the #1 factor in a successful threat stoppage with caliber a VERY distant #2? If you didn't read the quote I already provided from one of the leading forensic pathologists in the nation you really should. It makes your comment about "proven manstoppers" seem a little silly with all your determined attempts at coming off as the resident expert.

"Man stopper" is viable in terms of penetration. If shot placement is the #1 factor, we'd all carry Airsoft pistols. It's got to do *some* damage, right? (See my last post on big holes vs. more speed.)

I'm not the resident expert, nor do I pretend to be. You wrote those people off early in this thread-- and they have wisely ignored it since then. Like I said-- I like an argument, but can't seem to find one here.

I try to read with an open mind, especially with something I'm relatively unfamiliar with-- as per the FsN pistol and its 5.7 round. But as my very first post in this thread will indicate, I read with a critical eye as well and will shut down a subjective reading the minute the BS meter spikes. "6 shots in .5 seconds" is BS in the most extensive form-- especially in reference to accurate shot placement in amateur hands.

If you really had something new to offer here, it would have been accepted with open arms. You didn't, it wasn't, and as usual in these circumstances-- you're still sticking around, although you think you've somehow won something. I'll ask one final time-- rhetorically, as I really am done with this thread (unless you've replied again)-- who are you trying to convince here? If it's really "us", why do you care so much and seem to take the whole thing so personally? Would you stop to help someone change a tire, then stick around trying to convince them if they told you to **** off?

 

[JWG223]

Indeed. The only people who have actually had to perform the unfortunate duty of killing other people have been written off as ignorant and replaced with Youtube videos of pork roasts lurking behind detached car-hoods.

 

[goteron]

Im starting to feel like I'm sitting thought a condo sales pitch.

Can you post the link to the specific portion of that thread where there is relevant information? I don't want to read 28 more pages of this to find it.

 

[ericlosh]

this sure is a popular topic....

 

[JWG223]

this sure is a popular topic....

The 5.7 is always a popular topic because it polarizes people. Any controversial topic, be it republican/democrat, gay/straight, black/white, blue-collar/white-collar, rich/poor, sub-30gr varmint round masquerading as an effective self-defense round/9mm, etc. will always cause controversy.

 

[BAYOU922]

It looks like most of those pictures are 10+ years old. And I imagine some are staged for / by FN. pull the true exif and find some dates.

Wrong.

Many of those photos surfaced recently. The fact that some of them are older just goes to show that the agencies in question have been using the weapons for a long time. All of the photos I posted came from official sources or news sources, and I only scratched the surface. None of those photos are FN promotional.

I don't know of any agency that issues a FS pistol, though I haven't looked.

Way to discredit yourself in the same sentence.

It's not that fast; it's not verifiably accurate.

That's definitely very fast, and it is absolutely verifiably accurate. The relative accuracy/controllability of any given firearm is easily verifiable. If you personally have zero experience or next-to-zero experience with the weapon in question, that's your problem. The remedy? Spend more time shooting it and less time spouting off about it on the internet.

Furthermore, pistols chambered in 9mm, .40 and .45 can do the same thing.

Like it or not, those pistols have a lot more recoil. It doesn't matter if someone, somewhere can shoot them as quickly and accurately as someone, somewhere can shoot a Five-seveN. You can't extrapolate from shooter to shooter like that and actually expect to form any kind of valid conclusion on the weapon itself. It's simple: the Five-seveN has extremely low recoil and it can be fired very quickly and accurately. End of story.

You... Well, one of you... said that was proof of the gun's superiority

You're the only person in this thread obsessing over that video. The fact that you're still splitting hairs over specifically how many rounds some random person on Youtube fired from a Five-seveN in only 0.6 seconds just goes to show how desperate your argument is.

And just how much verifiable information have you provided?

A lot.

In fact, everything I have posted so far is verifiable information.

Why bother messing with it on your own, when Dr. Roberts was very much willing to accomodate you if he simply received some ammo and weapons to test with?

Try reading the thread you're posting in. Specifically, page two. Here is a copy-paste:

It's not the least bit surprising that EA is not interested in giving the almighty dentist (Dr. Roberts, DDS) free ammo to test. He is rabidly opposed to the 5.7x28mm caliber even though he hasn't tested any of the 5.7x28mm loads introduced in the last 20 years. That alone speaks volumes on his credibility and impartiality (or lack thereof). Virtually everything he has posted on this topic is recycled internet hearsay.

Two days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, this same individual was already touting the early media reports that said the killer was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with 5.7x28mm rounds.

Of course, we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer in question was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, and the killer was actually stopped by a second (male) police officer while she was lying on the ground severely wounded.

3) Elite Ammunition has a pretty shady history, between the Ryan guy and the raid that took place shortly after the test.

That individual was removed from their company years ago. As for the raid, the ATF reversed its own opinion on one bullet type used by EA; that would be the same ATF that actually does have a shady history, and is in the business of arming Mexican drug cartels.

Doesn't it behoove EA to fund some testing of their own?

Brassfetcher has already independently conducted gelatin testing with three of EA's 5.7x28mm loads. All of the loads expanded/tumbled and two of the three loads tested (T6 and Pro II) met the FBI penetration standard. I already posted the high speed video from the Pro II test in this thread.