FN FiveSeven USG 5.7X28 Your Comments

[goteron]

Wrong.

Many of those photos surfaced recently. The fact that some of them are older just goes to show that the agencies in question have been using the weapons for a long time. All of the photos I posted came from official sources or news sources, and I only scratched the surface. None of those photos are FN promotional.




Way to discredit yourself in the same sentence.

If the photos are old, they either have been, and are using them for a long time, or used them during that time period, and have stopped using them. I am not doubting that they are in use.

I in no way discredited myself. I said I didnt know, but I hadnt looked. So it was a truthful statement, and not discrediting.

These are quotes from some of the websites those pictures think to:

"While it may seem that the company FN Herstal has a significant advantage in terms of the number of copies sold of his submachine gun (according to the manufacturer 17 000 YTD2004), it is necessary to remember two factors. First, it is the total sales for about 15 years ago when there was no competition. Secondly, most purchases were small batches of several hundred pieces, most of which were attributed to the civilian market, and the standard of military forces."

"In March 2003, after analyzing the results of previous studies and reservations as to their results, QRT ordered to carry out additional tests in the Swiss Defence Procurement Agency (DPA). 24 June 2004, after the tests in Switzerland, NAAG QRT finally issued its opinion and recommended the adoption of the Belgian ammunition 5.7 mm x 28 as the standard for NATO. The German delegation, supported also by other countries, refused to accept this recommendation, seeing irregularities in the reports. They concerned, among other things, failure of the German test at 4.6 mm cartridge with a new missile."

In nearly the same timeframe:

By 1992, some 350,000 pistols had been sold in more than 45 countries, including 250,000 in the United States alone.[14]

Both introduced something new, glock and the 5.7 were "Revolutionary" But glock far outsold.

Lets look at 300BLK vs. 5.7, they are both bridging platforms, offering to fill a niche. Its my guess, that 300BLK PDW's will far outsell 5.7 PDWs given 15 years.

NSW is using them for boarding teams, CAG is using them, as are local law enforcement. I believe remington will be geared up to produce more 300BLK ammo in a given time frame than 5.7.

Why arent NSW and CAG toting Five-seveN's?

I have no fight with 5.7. I think a suppressed and SBR'd P90 would be a great tool for some uses, its very small. But the operational envelope isnt there. Assume its better than 9mm for a PDW (Although there are some MP5's mixed in with those pictures posted) Its not "THAT" much better to require a change. 300BLK makes a lot of sense for a PDW round.

These are my opinions, would I take a P90 if given one, sure. Would I buy one, probably not, but I am a nobody so it doesnt matter. I am interested to read that thread on ZS about the tests.

In the end, they are all just tools, no reason to become emotionally attached to them.

ETA: It looks like the S4M does no damage in the first 5" or so of gel, creates a cavity, flips, and then creates a smaller wound channel after that.

 

[Leonidas]

I couldn't be bothered to read the entire thread, so I've skimmed this page. I have only two things to add.


1. Screen name of something 5.7 or go home told me all I need to know.
2. If we get some of the Ron Paul fanatics involved, this thread could be truly legendary.

 

[Devilneck]

I couldn't be bothered to read the entire thread, so I've skimmed this page. I have only two things to add.


1. Screen name of something 5.7 or go home told me all I need to know.
2. If we get some of the Ron Paul fanatics involved, this thread could be truly legendary.

They already are.

 

[Leonidas]

Oops. Nevermind. (Ron Paul sucks)

 

[Devilneck]

Oops. Nevermind. (Ron Paul sucks)

Really, you should read through the thread. It is quite amusing.

 

[Leonidas]

Prior to his purchase of the Five-seveN, Hasan had zero experience shooting handguns.

To further quote.....

Prove it.

Don't cite internet hearsay, either, because that doesn't prove anything.

 

[G0FA57ORG0H0ME]

Well, I originally registered on this board to give Skiney the OP my point of view on the Five-seveN as I actually own the gun and have quite a bit of knowledge and experience shooting it. I think I served my purpose here and probably some would agree went beyond my purpose. I thank those of you that played the part of the antagonist in this discussion because without you, this thread would have been very boring. Instead it was very entertaining.

Yes 5.7x28mm topics are very polarizing for one reason and one reason only, the platform threatens many people primarily because they don't understand it. People like to be comfortable with their world views and generally don't like major changes upsetting their apple cart. The Five-seveN is mysterious, does things a pistol round has never done before, and is a ton of fun to shoot. The pretty girl at the dance is loathed by many but also coveted. When I bring my Five-seveN to the range it draws attention every time. From reports in the 5.7 forums, this happens all over the country. This will undoubtedly **** people off that don't own one. And considering it costs over a grand to purchase, that doesn't help things one bit. This isn't just a fancy 1911, it is a whole new type of weapon and doesn't feel or perform like anything you've shot before.

I have one funny story to share about a fellow that approached me kind of awkwardly at a shooting match. He said he used to own a Five-seveN pistol but got rid of it because he tried to shoot a coyote with it and it wouldn't penetrate its skin.... He was dead serious. I looked at him kind of embarrassed (for him) and just smiled and nodded. I knew what he was trying to do, he had to do it, it was beyond his control. He had to take that jealous jab at the Five-seveN and make an incoherent statement at the same time (more common than you would ever imagine). After the match he came up to me kind of humbly, apologetically and asked if he could have my brass. I kindly obliged, smiled and went home. The morale of the story; the Five-seveN makes people say crazy things because they don't understand it - I think some don't want to understand it *cough* *cough*.

So for those of you that read through this mind-numbing thread and go on to purchase a Five-seveN for yourselves; welcome to the club! For those of you that are interested but want to see more data please search 5.7x28mm on Youtube as there are tons of videos comparing the Five-seveN to other popular calibers. If you have a friend that owns one, meet him in a field somewhere and bring your favorite common caliber and compare damage to a 10lb pork shoulder. When you cut it open you will be surprised. Feel free to put some barriers in front of the meat and shoot. You will again be surprised. Also, there are some very large threads floating around the Interwebs detailing all the carnage in Mexico due to the Five-seveN as well as the P90. Five-seveN pistols go for $5,000 U.S. over in Mexico. Thats almost the average annual disposable income for a person in Mexico. Imagine if Five-seveN's were going for $30,000 in the United States!? That gives you an idea of how important this platform is to the killers over there. It must get the job done right?

Anyway, it was fun chatting with you guys about the Five-seveN. Stay safe!

 

[goteron]

I don't think most of the people on here are afraid of the system, most of the guys that responded have 0 emotional attachment to the guns they use. Most of the guys on here are not "guys from the range", especially not those that replied to this thread.

I see a few pros:

Light Recoil
Penetrates some body armor

The platform is flawed IMO, the safety is in a poor position, and it doesnt feel good in my hand. Parts are more difficult to come by, as is ammo (less of an issue)

I look at all of the handgun rounds 9mm-.45 to include 5.7. I believe they are within 15% of each other with relation to terminal ballistics. If the 5.7 was 100% better, then it would make a difference. However, I need holsters for the gun, I want to mill a RDS into the slide, I need spare parts, and cheap-ish ammo. The cost of the gun isnt an issue for guys that shoot a lot, its everything else. There is little support for it.

I am still not convinved that it is a great defensive round, viable, yes. Would I hesitate to give one to my wife for HD, if they ditched the safety, no.

Reloads on the P90 are slow, the magazines are large. however it does have some good benefits, size being paramount.

If I saw some 5.7 Gel tests like those done by Doug Carr for traditional rounds I may be more apt to look at it seriously. But I would never own one because of the platform, and the lack of adoption by other manufacturers.

New rounds come and go... But for a PDW, I believe the P90 will be overshadowed by 300BLK.

IMO, YMMV,

 

[Leonidas]

So the projectile made a 2.5 in. exit wound in some animal. It’s a killer. It’s a one shot stop. Blah, blah.
Why on earth would you be so enamored of its finger cyclic rate of fire. With that kind of devastation, a follow up would never be necessary.

Btw, have you actually, in the flesh, seen wounds of that magnitude. Or only on the internet, where any fantasy can become reality?

Furthermore, any schmo is an expert marksman upon pulling it out of the box. Why so thrilled by 30 round capacity. Expert shot placement + bone shattering, 2.5 inch hole producing performance means you'll never need that much ammo. Unless you're getting to the point of the discussion where you recommend this pistol as a replacement for your rifle, too.

Using a major tragedy like the Fort Hood incident to prove or disprove a weapon platform is poor taste. But since you brought it up...

"But since you brought it up" I'll gladly use poor taste, also.

And your compadre Bayou922 using the same poor taste in post #35 presents no issue for you.

If it wasn't for the haters, a 5.7 thread would go like this..

OP: Hey guys, I'm thinking about buying a Five-seveN.

1st reply: Is that the cop killer gun?

OP: I think so.

2nd reply: Cool.

/endthread

WTF. You would be okay with that thread!!!!

So instead, when somebody jumps in and makes the age-old statement, "The Five-seveN is nothing but an overhyped 22 mag"; guys like me can pull it up on Google search, jointhe forum, and educate while having a lot of fun.

So you sit at your search engine seeking places to argue against the grain of the discussion, and then join just to do that. Doesn't that define a troll?

 

[dwr461]

No he hasn't seen any real gunshot wounds. I can tell.

Ok since you can be bothered with the math. Momentum is as I said what happens to a body in motion after it strikes another body. Momentum has no units of measurement associated with it.

9mm 124 grain Gold Dot has a muzzle velocity of 1150 fps. Momentum = mass* velocity. 142600 = 124 * 1150
5.7mm 40 grain with muzzle velocity of 2800 fps. 112,000 = 40 * 2800

So guess what 9mm 124 grain bullets have more penetrating ability and power than 5.7mm 40 grain bullets. But we all knew that already. Didn't we?

Dave

 

[Swami]

...Yes 5.7x28mm topics are very polarizing for one reason and one reason only, the platform threatens many people primarily because they don't understand it. People like to be comfortable with their world views and generally don't like major changes upsetting their apple cart. The Five-seveN is mysterious, does things a pistol round has never done before, and is a ton of fun to shoot. The pretty girl at the dance is loathed by many but also coveted. When I bring my Five-seveN to the range it draws attention every time. From reports in the 5.7 forums, this happens all over the country. This will undoubtedly **** people off that don't own one. And considering it costs over a grand to purchase, that doesn't help things one bit. This isn't just a fancy 1911, it is a whole new type of weapon and doesn't feel or perform like anything you've shot before.

I realize I am just an ignorant Louisianian (as of course all of us in the south are), but this is how I read this statement:

"I have something so sophisticated people can't understand it, and that makes me feel special. It is the pretty girl at the dance, that I alone had the courage and brilliance to win over. Most of you old fogey gun guys are jealous of this weapon platform because it outperforms everything in your arsenal. I like the fact that this gun allows people with no training to shoot it effectively, because training is the last thing I need. Nonetheless, even with no recoil, it makes a Manly "Boom" at the range, and I feel big and powerful when people look at me. Combine that with the high price I paid for it, and I become superman in all your pitiful eyes. You secretly want what I have, yet are too stupid or poor to have it - and while I realize many of you are ex-military or LEO, I'm certain none of you podunks has ever handled anything like THIS."

The fanboy-ness in this forum makes me want to take a shower.

First of all let me say I LOVED the five-seven in Counterstrike. It's by far the best pistol in that game. In real-world scenarios, however, I choose other options. It's killed hogs - but if my buddy in Florida asked me to bring a good handgun for some big hog hunting, it wouldn't be my choice. It's killed intruders - but in my opinion it's not my choice for home defense. It is an option for CCW - but in my opinion there are much better choices. It is a well-tested, proven round - and so are many others.

I have many opinions on many things, and realize they are my own opinion. To preach this handgun, this round, like they are something revolutionary that should change people's lives: that's just silly. To further say that a dislike of this platform stems from ignorance or jealousy - that's just being a douche.

 

[JWG223]

I do not feel jealous of your 5.7x28. I don't think anyone here does, either. A $1000 price-tag is not a barrier to entry based on what other people in this thread own. The fact that you are using that as your argument as to why it is not liked, in part, is a grasp at an imaginary straw to validate your choice.

 

[Devilneck]

Part of why a 5.56 was chosen by the military was because a wounded soldier consumes resources for the enemy. An outright kill just takes one man out of the picture.

I do not believe this is factual. Can you back it up?

Guy, this is the last time I'm going to bother replying to any of your posts.

www.google.com Try reading about Vietnam, the introduction of the M16 and the 5.56x45's choice as a service round.

That was also what was explained to us in Boot Camp when we were training with the weapon. I'm quite sure I'm not the only Marine that has heard those speeches given by the PMI's, and our own DI's regarding the use of the M16 as opposed to an M14, or some larger caliber weapon.
There were other factors as well. Cost, Nato, weight, range, battlesight zero range and so on.

 

[Skiney]

Well, I originally registered on this board to give Skiney the OP my point of view on the Five-seveN as I actually own the gun and have quite a bit of knowledge and experience shooting it. Quote


And for that I thank you and everyone who posted.

Merry Christmas to you all.

 

[Leonidas]

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God."

 

[Skiney]

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God."

HEY Thanks:}

 

[Nomad.2nd]

Part of why a 5.56 was chosen by the military was because a wounded soldier consumes resources for the enemy. An outright kill just takes one man out of the picture.


Guy, this is the last time I'm going to bother replying to any of your posts.

www.google.com Try reading about Vietnam, the introduction of the M16 and the 5.56x45's choice as a service round.

That was also what was explained to us in Boot Camp when we were training with the weapon. I'm quite sure I'm not the only Marine that has heard those speeches given by the PMI's, and our own DI's regarding the use of the M16 as opposed to an M14, or some larger caliber weapon.
There were other factors as well. Cost, Nato, weight, range, battlesight zero range and so on.

You are not the only Marine.

They ALSO shot a ammo can of dirt with a 7.62x51, and an EMPTY ammo can with a M16 and tried to compare them with the guys with "7.62's" (AK's)


What is done AFTER the fact, to try to 'assure' the guys who are going to be bleeding out is different that what the INTENT was.

Similar to the adaptation of 3 round burst... it's b/c TRAINING people to use FA fire... isn't cost effective.
Mechanical crutch.


As to a $1,000 pricetag. I LITERALLY do not know how many $1,000+ firearms I own, but the number would be well into the double digits.
Cost is not a factor for me, either for 'toys' I want, or 'tools' I use.

 

[JWG223]

Part of why a 5.56 was chosen by the military was because a wounded soldier consumes resources for the enemy. An outright kill just takes one man out of the picture.


Guy, this is the last time I'm going to bother replying to any of your posts.

www.google.com Try reading about Vietnam, the introduction of the M16 and the 5.56x45's choice as a service round.

That was also what was explained to us in Boot Camp when we were training with the weapon. I'm quite sure I'm not the only Marine that has heard those speeches given by the PMI's, and our own DI's regarding the use of the M16 as opposed to an M14, or some larger caliber weapon.
There were other factors as well. Cost, Nato, weight, range, battlesight zero range and so on.

Plenty of Vietnam vets have told me that the 5.56 tumbles through the air like a buzz-saw. Rumors have been handed to young recruits since the dawn of time. However, I have never seen any FACT that that was a factor at all, primary, secondary, or tertiary, or otherwise in the decision to field the 5.56 round.

Did they train you to go for the legs instead of COM, too? I highly doubt so.

 

[BAYOU922]

I said I didnt know, but I hadnt looked. So it was a truthful statement, and not discrediting.

It was a truthful and meaningless statement, then.

In nearly the same timeframe:

By 1992, some 350,000 pistols had been sold in more than 45 countries, including 250,000 in the United States alone.[14]

Both introduced something new, glock and the 5.7 were "Revolutionary" But glock far outsold.

The "Glock pistol" is technically a number of different pistols in all different calibers and sizes; if your comparison was to be valid, you would first have to narrow it down to one specific model of Glock pistol in one specific caliber. Next, you would have to consider the fact that all Glock pistols are chambered in conventional calibers, and most of them are chambered in very, very old calibers (i.e. 9x19mm and .45 ACP) that gained acceptance a long time before any Glock pistol was even in development.

Basically, your comparison is completely invalid.

Why arent NSW and CAG toting Five-seveN's?

NSW is actually using MP7s in the even smaller HK 4.6x30mm caliber.

A $1000 price-tag is not a barrier to entry based on what other people in this thread own.

Based on some of the comments earlier in the thread, yes, apparently it is.

So you sit at your search engine seeking places to argue against the grain of the discussion, and then join just to do that. Doesn't that define a troll?

No, a troll would be someone more like yourself whose sole purpose for posting in these threads is to dump on a gun that you don't even own, shoot, know about, or care about.

 

[goteron]

NSW may be using MP7s, I don't know, but are they using 5-7 pistols? Is CAG? Why wouldn't they?

Can you list all US LE agencies being issues 5-7 pistols?

The Glock argument is valid, I believe more Glock 45GAP pistols have been sold than 5-7s.

The hate meter can come down a few notches, it's the Internet.

Could you imagine if magpul released the PDR in 300BLK, it would make the P90 obsolete overnight.


Also, a 5.7 round is not all that new.

The MMJ 5.7mm is based on the 30 Carbine cartridge necked down to 22 caliber. It is a very efficient cartridge and, like others of this class, gives performance out of all proportion to its size. As a sporting round, its use would be limited to small or medium game and varmint shooting. In a survival situation, it would certainly kill a deer, but 22 caliber rifles are not classed for big game in most states. Down in Mexico or South America where animals are not nearly as tough or tenacious as in Africa, the 5.7mm Spitfire would make a dandy explorers weapon. One could handle anything found in the jungle with it, two or four legged. A similar wildcat is know as the 22 Carbine.