Had Enough?

[SVT]

NSA collects millions of e-mail address books globally: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...4f9-11e3-80c6-7e6dd8d22d8f_story.html?hpid=z1

 

[Emperor]

NSA collects millions of e-mail address books globally: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...4f9-11e3-80c6-7e6dd8d22d8f_story.html?hpid=z1

Saw that this morning! I guess the outrage from the masses about the earlier revelations just didn't matter enough to stem the tide. Now they are just ramping it up right down our throats and despite the consequences.

F'n sad!

 

[ajt2341]

Cool story bro. I'm betting your teen neighbor has collected more email addresses and sold them to spammers, but what ever gives you something to rally behind.

 

[Fred_G]

I heard the NSA had a Customer Service release. "You talk, we listen."

 

[Emperor]

Cool story bro. I'm betting your teen neighbor has collected more email addresses and sold them to spammers, but what ever gives you something to rally behind.

In light of the "Facts" we (not just me; everyone that has a semblance of sense), now know about what the NSA (and by their own admission), has, and continues to do; this (above), may be the most ridiculous statement I have ever read on this website.

 

[ajt2341]

It's not a disregard for what they are doing, it's the fact that privacy hasn't existed in any form in decades and that the government is actually the last group to get in to the game.

Every other phone provider in the world has been collecting the same information, and a lot more for the last few decades. The NSA stores connection logs for the last 5 years.

Every ISP in the world stores connection data, time, locational information, etc since their existence. The NSA stores connection data for the last five years.

Every credit card processor stores data on exactly what you buy, when, where, how much money you had at the time, etc. Last I checked the NSA isn't following credit cards.

Every major shopping company tracks every thing you purchase, whether they do it by your credit/debit card number or when you use a discount card with them. Lately if you leave the wifi turned on on your phone they track your location within the store to see what products you stood near, where you went, etc. Again, the NSA isn't there yet.

All of these corporations take all of this complied data and sell it to each other, sell it to marketing firms, compile it with more information about you and resell it, etc. You have absolutely no privacy in this world. The only reason the NSA exists is because buying everyone's information from a marketing company, while more complete, would cost the government more money.

The employees at the NSA have qualified for security clearances, are constantly monitored, and trained NOT to access information on US persons unless a warrant has been obtained. The information is stored, but not accessed, in the event something comes up and a review is needed. The guy at the ATT store that can pull of your contact history doesn't give a care in the world about accessing US persons information. The marketing companies don't care as long as they make a dollar, etc.

It's laughable when people point out that in the last few years a very few undisciplined NSA employees pulled up someone's personal information, got caught, and got disciplined internally. ATT employees pull up call logs, conversations, location information, etc daily to check up on their wives, girlfriends, spouses, etc. Yet no one cares. I know that employees of every other major company do the same thing.

The constitution is great, but it's a document for the American people, not an international treaty. All of these other countries citing the NSA as doing something wrong are doing the same thing, then they play the constitution card saying it's illegal according to our own laws, failing to realize it doesn't apply to them.

The 4th amendment is there for a reason, and it does protect US persons. The NSA does not actively collect, examine, or act on US persons information. If US persons information does need to be researched for an investigation, they get a warrant. Obtaining a warrant to search someone's digital information doesn't violate the constitution, it's part of the process. It is followed to the strictest standards at government organizations.

But it's okay, keep complaining that the government is storing private information for security purposes, even though they don't review it without a warrant. And keep ignoring the blatant disregard for privacy from every large company in America, because heck the government answers to us, but we pay those corporations to improve our quality of life. It's not like we pay taxes for the government to keep us safe or anything. It's not like the minute 9/11 happened the first thing people said is "why did our government let this happen". Yet as soon as the people see that they're trying harder to increase security, they find reasons to cry about that.

 

[Emperor]

You are forgetting one extremely important point. When I "agree" to use those other data mining services; I get the choice to decide. If you read the 40 pages of each of these companies "terms of service agreement", you are opting to allow them certain liberties with your personal information.

Give me the same choice when my government does it. Oh, that's right; I don't have a choice!

 

[olivs260]

Bazinga!

Excellent points, ajt. I'd rather the government have (limited) access to information about me (when they get a warrant) than private companies, with employees that may or may not have my best interests in mind. Regardless, I think the few that use stored data for nefarious purposes, whether private or public sector, are indeed very few, and they are punished when caught.

Besides, was anyone actually surprised that government agencies are collecting and storing this information? I think we all knew about it, we just didn't talk about it before.

 

[ajt2341]

Give me the same choice when my government does it. Oh, that's right; I don't have a choice!

You have a choice of which companies you use, and you have a choice of which government you use. If you find a better deal, move.

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

That's your choice. Just a heads up, I've been in plenty of other places, I still live here because it's still the best country around.

 

[ajt2341]

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying and where you are coming from; however I have long been a believer in several things. 1. Don't complain unless you have a better solution. 2. Don't just complain, do something. 3. Remember that you always have a choice, you just have to accept the consequences.

I'm just tired of people making mountains out of mole hills and ignoring the real mountains.

 

[Emperor]

You have a choice of which companies you use, and you have a choice of which government you use. If you find a better deal, move.

That's it? That's your answer? Do you want me to deconstruct your logic in that argument till it hurts humanity or do you just want it at face value?

I'll go easy; until others add to the list of the many things I may have forgotten.

With your logic, you will live in this world and try to cope without: A phone! Credit Cards (though admittedly some people decide not to have them because they can't)! A bank account! A bank loan! A mortgage! Renting if you can't afford to own (refer to bank loan)! Medical issues (I guess you could use holistic healing entirely)! A dentist! A doctor! Electricity! Water! Checks! Paying taxes (although I am with you on this if you can do it)! Computers (though you may be able to own one without putting your info on it, but I doubt it; and you will have to pay cash for it)!

This is for starters! I have a challenge for you! You find me any of the above services that positively will not collect my personal information and subsequently use it for marketing or whatever; and I will join you!

 

[Emperor]

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying and where you are coming from; however I have long been a believer in several things. 1. Don't complain unless you have a better solution. 2. Don't just complain, do something. 3. Remember that you always have a choice, you just have to accept the consequences.

I'm just tired of people making mountains out of mole hills and ignoring the real mountains.

See! Now you went and edited your previous thought after I answered it. And I do offer solutions to my concerns about this particular problem; STOP DOING IT! It's illegal to track innocent civilians without probable cause.

You may not think this mole hill is mountainous, but I do!

Let me add, that I am very active and vociferous with my concerns about problems that negatively affect me! I write letters! I call out phony journalists and news agencies! I talk (reluctantly), with politicians when I know I am wasting my breath! Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't. So I try to do my part to vote them out for any infraction to my beliefs.

It's all I got.

 

[ajt2341]

That's it? That's your answer? Do you want me to deconstruct your logic in that argument till it hurts humanity or do you just want it at face value?

I'll go easy; until others add to the list of the many things I may have forgotten.

With your logic, you will live in this world and try to cope without: A phone! Credit Cards (though admittedly some people decide not to have them because they can't)! A bank account! A bank loan! A mortgage! Renting if you can't afford to own (refer to bank loan)! Medical issues (I guess you could use holistic healing entirely)! A dentist! A doctor! Electricity! Water! Checks! Paying taxes (although I am with you on this if you can do it)! Computers (though you may be able to own one without putting your info on it, but I doubt it; and you will have to pay cash for it)!

This is for starters! I have a challenge for you! You find me any of the above services that positively will not collect my personal information and subsequently use it for marketing or whatever; and I will join you!

You chose all of that out of convenience, because you have a quality of life that you're used to, or because everyone else is doing it. It's still your choice, period. You accept the consequences of sharing your information for the convenience of living your life the way your chose. Why don't you demand those companies stop collecting your information? Because you agreed to their terms of service. You still live in the US because you chose to, because it's the best option, so agree with the terms of service or move out.

 

[Jack]

You chose all of that out of convenience, because you have a quality of life that you're used to, or because everyone else is doing it. It's still your choice, period. You accept the consequences of sharing your information for the convenience of living your life the way your chose. Why don't you demand those companies stop collecting your information? Because you agreed to their terms of service. You still live in the US because you chose to, because it's the best option, so agree with the terms of service or move out.

I think he is upset because he believes the government isn't holding up to their end of the terms of service.

 

[ajt2341]

It's illegal to track innocent civilians without probable cause. !

You keep flat out ignoring that part about data being automatically stored, without intervention of anyone or any type of tracking, and no one looking at it unless a warrant is obtained. Please tell me how storing information is illegal. No one is tracked without a warrant. Please, keep focusing on the one or two abuses a year, rather than the millions of foreign records, the thousands of international criminals, and dozens of attacks on the US that have been prevented. I'd rather see 9/11 a few more times rather than know someone might look at my grandma's gumbo recipe... NOT.

Essentially all that means is the government has a place to go when it has a warrant to look at information, rather than call the local phone company and tell some random guy they have a warrant and need access to XYZ phone records.

 

[Emperor]

You chose all of that out of convenience, because you have a quality of life that you're used to, or because everyone else is doing it. It's still your choice, period. You accept the consequences of sharing your information for the convenience of living your life the way your chose. Why don't you demand those companies stop collecting your information? Because you agreed to their terms of service. You still live in the US because you chose to, because it's the best option, so agree with the terms of service or move out.

Not true! We are forced to use those things because of the circumstances we live; not despite them. I gave you solid examples of things you cannot live without whether you choose to or not. Very few people live self sufficiently here.

And the leave if you don't like it argument is really weak! Don't you think?

 

[Emperor]

You keep flat out ignoring that part about data being automatically stored, without intervention of anyone or any type of tracking, and no one looking at it unless a warrant is obtained. Please tell me how storing information is illegal. No one is tracked without a warrant. Please, keep focusing on the one or two abuses a year, rather than the millions of foreign records, the thousands of international criminals, and dozens of attacks on the US that have been prevented. I'd rather see 9/11 a few more times rather than know someone might look at my grandma's gumbo recipe... NOT.

Essentially all that means is the government has a place to go when it has a warrant to look at information, rather than call the local phone company and tell some random guy they have a warrant and need access to XYZ phone records.

Where have you been getting your facts? This NSA scandal continues to unravel. The extent of what they are doing is unfathomable. And you are basing your argument on this government doing the right thing? That's the crux of the problem! They have never shown that they can be trusted to do what is right with extenuating and over reaching privileges.

Look if you believe they will do what they say they will do; again, more power to you. They have proven time and time again; they cannot and will not.

And besides; the government is not supposed to automatically collect my data regardless of what they do with it.

 

[JNieman]

you have a choice of which government you use. If you find a better deal, move.

Wow.

Just...


WOW.

 

[JNieman]

the thousands of international criminals, and dozens of attacks on the US that have been prevented.

Actually the NSA director came out admitting he lied about all that, and nothing has really been connected to any of their data mining and abuse.

 

[dirty dan]

You keep flat out ignoring that part about data being automatically stored, without intervention of anyone or any type of tracking, and no one looking at it unless a warrant is obtained...

Essentially all that means is the government has a place to go when it has a warrant to look at information, rather than call the local phone company and tell some random guy they have a warrant and need access to XYZ phone records.

I've got a really nice bridge for sale if you're interested.