Heroin: Making a comeback with avengence

[Jack]

As terrible as that sounds, we would probably have to go through a period of total societal **** to find out if it has any appreciable affect for the greater good. What we do know already, is this current **** policy needs no further lab time!

I'm with the; "let's try something/anything else" crowd.

I hear ya, I just wasn't sure if some studies had been done in those countries who has already tried the legalization option.

 

[reelkaos]

You guys are a trip.

What happened to all the bootleg liquor salesmen when it was legalized again?

I have never bought booze on the street corner.

 

[Jack]

You guys are a trip.

What happened to all the bootleg liquor salesmen when it was legalized again?

I have never bought booze on the street corner.

Damn the imaginary moonshine!

 

[rrussotwo]

You guys are a trip.

What happened to all the bootleg liquor salesmen when it was legalized again?

I have never bought booze on the street corner.

They became race car drivers.

Joking aside. What we're doing isn't working. Legalization and taxation is a tactic, decriminalization is another, simpler to implement, but less lucrative and more egalitarian tactic.

As to what would happen to the dealers if it were suddenly legal.... I'd guess they'd have less of a hard time finding work than drug addicts would either way.

Would crime rates rise or drop? No idea, but it would definitely change the dynamic and the people we'd be putting away wouldn't be crying that the laws were unjustly designed to incarcerate them.

I've never done any illegal drug and wouldn't start if it were legalized tomorrow. I don't know many people it would affect one way or the other.

I think the outcry is because people are sick and tired of funding a trillions of dollars lost cause war on drugs. It's stupid and the only true casualties are the law abiding public's tax burden.

 

[tim9lives]

The main problem I see with the criminalization of drugs is that we are enriching the gangs and criminal organizations who want to destabilize society. The desire and use of the illegal substances does not really change much...whether the substance is legal or illegal.
In fact...If we take a look at the European nations which have ended their "War on Drugs".....Use and Overdoses have actually decreased. The abuse of all drugs has not decreased a lot...but the abuse of the hard drugs has decreased.
The two countries which come to mind are Portugal and Switzerland. They have moved away from the War on Drugs model of enforcement and moved to whats called HARM REDUCTION model.
Hence...the main objective of their law and intervention is to help those who abuse drugs. Its all about treatment and preventing abuse and overdoses.

By the way....in Switzerland...Heroin abuse is a big problem. They do have a number of immigrants who have moved their and abuse heroin. There is a public park...nicknamed "needle park."
During the 1980s, heroin addicts would frequently gather at the park, and attempts to disperse them merely resulted in them regrouping elsewhere. Thus in 1987 the authorities chose to allow illegal drug use and sales at the park, in an effort to contain Zurich's growing drug problem. Police were not allowed to enter the park or make arrests. Clean needles were given out to addicts as part of the Zurich Intervention Pilot Project, or ZIPP-AIDS program.[2] However, lack of control over what went on in the park caused a multitude of problems. Drug dealers and users arrived from all over Europe, and crime became rampant as dealers fought for control and addicts (who numbered up to 20,000) stole to support their habit. The once-beautiful gardens had degraded into a mess of mud and used needles, and the emergency services were overwhelmed with the number of overdoses, which were almost nightly. Platzspitz, or Needle Park as it was then known, became a source of embarrassment to the Swiss government and in 1992, police moved in to clear up the park.
The interesting thing about needle park is that most of Switzerland's teenagers now see the damages and result of heroin abuse. The effects have moved from the shadows into the public square. And most young kids are way turned off by heroin. Interviews of tennagers and data has shown that by seeing the effects.....most teengers are no longer drawn to even trying heroin. They see the users as total losers.
Ending the War on Drugs is not about making it more available or even cutting the price. Heck...the price is already dirt cheap. Its about cutting down on the overall harm to society by the drugs.
And the biggest part of the problem as I see it is that the War has not slowed demand....Not slowed abuse....and actually does much more harm to society as a whole.

 

[mcinfantry]

You guys are a trip.

What happened to all the bootleg liquor salesmen when it was legalized again?

I have never bought booze on the street corner.

Really? You don't know anywhere to buy moonshine or homebrew beer?

The mafia, and other criminal elements run a billion dollar a year bootleg liquor network across the US.




ΜΟΡΟΝ ΛΑΒΙΑ

 

[D-DAY]

I am referring to you.

Show me an example of a place where all drugs were decriminalized and it worked.

JR1572

You think I'm tinfoil or in a fairy tail mindset on this matter? That's rich!

Years ago I used to be in the "increase enforcement" or "increase penalties and sentencing" camp. My first encounter with someone knowledgable with a counter opinion was a guy I would argue with on Glock Talk. I later found out he owned/ran the Schaffer Drug Library online. I finally took time to actually read and learn and it made me seek as much info as I could find about drug history, use, addiction, societal mindsets towards drugs, and even demonization of various drugs and users. I suggest you actually learn the other side and what you are up against since you are currently backing a dead horse.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/

Define "it worked".

It's a much larger issue than just decriminalization.

 

[mcinfantry]

I would support a two pronged change.

Maintain the criminal charge of possession of ANY firearm with all narcotics.

That way the non-violent users, dealers would be OK doing what they do unarmed.

Since the jails are full of them.

Does anyone see a problem with that?


ΜΟΡΟΝ ΛΑΒΙΑ

 

[tim9lives]

They became race car drivers.

Joking aside. What we're doing isn't working. Legalization and taxation is a tactic, decriminalization is another, simpler to implement, but less lucrative and more egalitarian tactic.

As to what would happen to the dealers if it were suddenly legal.... I'd guess they'd have less of a hard time finding work than drug addicts would either way.

Would crime rates rise or drop? No idea, but it would definitely change the dynamic and the people we'd be putting away wouldn't be crying that the laws were unjustly designed to incarcerate them.

I've never done any illegal drug and wouldn't start if it were legalized tomorrow. I don't know many people it would affect one way or the other.

I think the outcry is because people are sick and tired of funding a trillions of dollars lost cause war on drugs. It's stupid and the only true casualties are the law abiding public's tax burden.

Rrussotwo....you are absolutely correct. You most likely would never do the hard drugs even if they were legal. Its all about the way the human brain is. Bottom line is that most people do like some form of excitement in their life. Especially young men. Some may climb mountains...Jump out of airplanes and Skydive. Others will go to a casino and gamble. But the truth of the matter is that all of those actions stimulate the same part of the human brain.
It has been studied and proven by the science/medical community.....Cocaine use stimulates the brain in the exact same way that gambling does. I'm not attacking those who gamble...don't get defensive.
I am only pointing out that most people are by and large the same....The human brain is the same. Human nature is human nature.
FWIW....most young guys love excitement. And as bizarre as it may sound to many cops reading this....I think a lot of young kids ( Thugs) do what they do not only for the money. They love the excitement which goes with the lifestyle. Legalization of drugs may actually decrease demand.
Look at the 1930's...Prohibition. Everyone went to Speakeasies. They did it because it was illegal and exciting. Once booze was legal again...consumption did not increase that much.

 

[rrussotwo]

Rrussotwo....you are absolutely correct. You most likely would never do the hard drugs even if they were legal. Its all about the way the human brain is. Bottom line is that most people do like some form of excitement in their life. Especially young men. Some may climb mountains...Jump out of airplanes and Skydive. Others will go to a casino and gamble. But the truth of the matter is that all of those actions stimulate the same part of the human brain.
It has been studied and proven by the science/medical community.....Cocaine use stimulates the brain in the exact same way that gambling does. I'm not attacking those who gamble...don't get defensive.
I am only pointing out that most people are by and large the same....The human brain is the same. Human nature is human nature.
FWIW....most young guys love excitement. And as bizarre as it may sound to many cops reading this....I think a lot of young kids ( Thugs) do what they do not only for the money. They love the excitement which goes with the lifestyle. Legalization of drugs may actually decrease demand.
Look at the 1930's...Prohibition. Everyone went to Speakeasies. They did it because it was illegal and exciting. Once booze was legal again...consumption did not increase that much.

Interesting hypothesis.

Too busy (date night) to research decreasing demand after legalization of a banned substance, but I will research it and see if there is indeed an inverse relationship between legal availability and usage.

 

[JWG223]

I wonder what the war on drugs has cost vs. the cost of not having had one. I knew one officer that was a member of LEAP, but sadly did not get a chance to discuss it much with him. That said, I dunno. Pot is illegal for stupid reasons, IMO, but then...acid? meth? PCP? Those are different animals.

 

[JWG223]

All manner of drugs are super easy to get. If you want them, it's do-able, no problem, and way cheaper than many think. I don't think the law/law enforcement stops it, or even slows it down much. It's way harder to buy a box of 9mm at wal-mart than it is for a 17 year old to get an 8ball.